Interview-Company A
Fri, Mar 10, 2023 4:15PM • 56:51
Question: Please tell us the background of your idea and your initiative to start your business.
What inspired you to design a business model based on this specific technology?
Answer: When this technology appeared, it started to attract a lot of attention and this attention was two
dimension. It won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2004 and 2010. A lot of money was thrown on the
research, okay to make innovations to make products, you know, to revolutionize sectors with this new
amazing material. So what happened? I think this is not only for graphene this is for every new technology
received a lot of attention. The hype will grow. And then suddenly you go through a valley of valley of
death, where the hype will be less, less financing is available and many projects many ideas will die at
the point. Ok, back to your question. What made me to build a business model on this technology, I
started to work with this technology when I joined postdoc fellowship at Uppsala University and one of
the organization. So it was very interesting, it was a project with the collaboration between industry and
an academic organization and I was exactly at the interface between those two industries. The
organization is the world leader in their sector, and Uppsala University is itself world leader I would say
in material science and in the fields departments. I was at that intersection. But both partners (industrial
and academic) they speak completely different languages. Academia they speak, you know, scientific
details, human performance, fundamentals. Industry, they speak you no further commercial
communication, commercialization, scale up, competitiveness, prices, all these product lifetime and all
these things. So then I was actually able to ….being in between two strong sides, speaking different
languages start adopting both languages and working as an interface between them. So how you can
learn both of them? And I think they're I personally at the personal level, I learned how as a scientist, you
have to think beyond the fundamentals you have to think what is the added value for the end user? And
that was, you know, the triggering point. So what made me to make this journey, you know, as, as a
researcher was like a PhD and then you have a postdoc, I wanted to see an impact of my contribution at
larger scale faster. When you are a researcher, you get a research publication, you know, you get a lot
of good contributions, but it will take time to be utilised, you know, by someone to have a product or to
have a business and to have it scale-up. And I wanted to not only have an invention I wanted to take the
invention to the extreme, to the full potential, so that's why I decided. Okay. To take a leap from being a
researcher to be an entrepreneur and there's something in between, it's called hybrid entrepreneurship
and Hybrid entrepreneur is one, who is thinking about the business opportunity, but still very much
connected to the academia and the fundamentals and to the research and that I think, I described myself
as a hybrid entrepreneur. And then in every business opportunity, you have to find the need, okay, if
you're solving a problem… for who is it a problem and who is willing to pay for it. And then, at that time,
the industrial partner who was involved in research was very much interested in finding solutions for
different potential products. There I saw the opportunity and timing sometimes helps. When I was working
at this industrial partner, the partner started an initiative, an incubator, to bring startups with great ideas
to help their product developments and solving their problems. And there I took the opportunity, so to
speak, I utilised my University, support the ecosystem, we call it innovation ecosystem. Maybe you can
speak more about this together with the need. And then I tried, okay, there's an idea there's an innovation,
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but that's never sufficient. You have to combine this with you know, with stream, with investments and
with projects you have to put all the specific pieces together. And I think the environment was encouraging
to do this. At that time, I was employed by our industrial partner for quite some time. Then one day I
called my wife I told my wife I am quitting from my job. She said well, how are we going to make our
living? So I said don't worry, I will find out. But then what happened that I managed to make our industrial
partner as the first paying customer for our product, and that has paved the way when I started to talk to
the investors.
Question: When you talk about your industrial partner in research as an investor, was it because
they were already collaborating with you in the same field in research?
Answer: Yeah, yes, and it was, you know, a problem solving for or a solution for a problem they had and
not only one product in multiple products. That was a motivation. There was a need for this new
technology in their existing and future products. And that what motivated the investment I would say,
okay, usually those investment at those companies, they make strategic investments they don't invest in,
in something doesn't really help the business units. I think my business proposal was a good strategic fit,
so to speak, for the investor’s multi product lines.
Question: Did your investor also helped you with some technical issues or only financial?
Answer: Yeah, very much I would say. You know, when you want to start up company you need access
to infrastructure, you know, you can do experiments or to build the prototype in your garage almost all
the time. You know, sometimes garage or wherever is good. But when you're using materials and
chemicals and you have characterization techniques, you need the more advanced places. So through
this incubator, we get access to the laboratories of out customer for free. So, we have been utilising the
chemistry lab, the materials laboratory characterization techniques for quite some time. And then we
decided, well, yeah, now we are grown up to the level that we should have our own. So that's why we
moved actually from that incubator to this facility in 2019, where we started to feel the need for having
our own research laboratory production lines.
Question: it's quite interesting and especially the role of the investor who is your customer as
well. What were the skills or what was the most important thing that helped you make a successful
Collaboration and partnership?
Answer: I think you have to always listen to the customer needs. And try to propose or to tune your
presentation and your speech towards solving their problems. You have to first understand their needs.
And then make yourself as an enabler for that need. If you don't succeed with this, you will be a cool
technology that doesn't have home. So then you have to really find, here's the problem. Here's my
solution, for what I am building the right bridge to connect between the problem and my solution. if you're
able to package this in a good way it will be great. What is also important is that you have to lobby and
to build relations with the right people. And that is needed in everything in life. Like within sight of you
have to know, If I need help with this, who is my first friend to go to and ask for help? you have to build
this personal network so to speak, and I think it was great during my collaboration with this investor. They
have open minded culture that, it enables you. If someone was not able to support me, he or she always
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helped me guiding to right person, like… I don't know this, but I believe my colleague here can help you
much better than me and so we started to build your network inside that organization.
Question: If we compare your partner with your company, they are a huge company. On the other
side you were just starting at that time. So what do you think... did you feel any gap or issue in
collaboration from this point of view?
Answer: No kidding. They are much bigger than us, no comparison.
Yes, the largest gap, I would say, is the speed level. As a startup company, you need speed. Okay. You
have to get things done. Always yesterday, or day before. Speed does matter. For big corporates, they
are not the best in speed, they are slow moving. Okay. And that, you know, that huge difference in speed
is a problem because expectations are different from different parties. So we expect that everyone will
be moving with our speed base, but no they are moving with their speed pace. And here it gets kind like
frustration from the startup company, why projects are not progressing or getting according to our speed
expectations. That is really huge problem. The other one is as a startup company, you don't really fully
understand the supply value chain of big corporates. You believe that you have a solution you will be
able to sell to end customer but then you start to learn while they have at least 10 sub suppliers and that
you have to work with them, Instead of working with end customer as an end user. To understand this, it
takes time, but once you understand this fact, it will help you to talk to their suppliers, then together with
their suppliers you develop a solution for them. But this takes time. It doesn't happen in a short time.
Question: So the business model for you, you don't have specific product, as you mentioned, you
consider yourself as hybrid entrepreneur between academia and the business started,
Answer: When I started, but now I mean, I think we are beyond that.
Question: So do you have any specific standard products or everything is according to client
needs i.e. customized solution? You discovered what they need and then you go there?
Answer: We have both, I would say. So what we have been building as a technology platform that can
serve different business verticals. Okay. We have a technology platform that can be offered for metal
industry, it can be offered for the plastic industry or for the battery industry. Okay, the same technology
platform. That which is I think it's quite common in material science, because the materials can be used
for multi applications. If you take stainless steel, use steel for aerospace and use it for the tubes and
piping. It is same for us. We are a materials technology company with a very interesting, strong and
growing technology platform. We offer our materials into different verticals. We have both standardized
products and got the customer and then we have task specific made products for specific customers or
specific applications. Which one is better? It's difficult to tell. But the more you are able to standardize
your product and your offering, the easier it will be to sell. Because if you have a custom-made solution,
well, it's difficult to scale up the business model because you have limited sales forces. And then the
sales process will be very complicated. Every customer you have to have a lot of meetings until you make
a sale. But if you have a standardized product, well, this is the product specifications and technical
datasheet. You put it on your website or through a distributor and then you can sell it without any sales
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force involved there. So those two things are interesting, but if you are able to standardize your product
and your offering, (it is) much better than custom made
Question: How you identify the potential opportunity. How do you make decision which
opportunity to avail? Especially your business is based on a lot of researches. Do you have any
kind of details that you can share?
Answer: Yes. That is very tricky. And we made mistakes as everyone does. Okay.
Question: From which perspective?
Answer: From the perspective of not being focused when you are a startup, (it) was a very interesting
technology which can be used in multi verticals. So if you lose focus, okay, then you start to run there
then well, maybe it's here and then we did this mistake. And then we have started to develop something
to evaluate opportunities. Okay with a checklist of questions. Okay. Are we solving a problem? How large
is the problem? How much is the customer is willing to pay for the problem? How large is the market?
What is time to the market? Do we have competition How tough is it? Then you have like a questionnaire
when we come across an opportunity we evaluate before we start to run and allocate resources. And if
you don't do this, you will be you know running in multiple directions and you will get nowhere.
Question: Talking about the supply value chain you mentioned that you need to build it up in
depth. How did you do that? Means after you learn that this is what you need to do, how you were
able to build it up. So what was your approach toward it?
Answer: Yeah. It wasn't just systematic. I tell you. What we came to know about this after we have made
some mistakes, believing that yes what we are developing will be offered directly to a certain customer
then we learned, no it does not work this way. Well, we are a startup, no one is going to buy directly from
us. They will buy from the existing suppliers. That's why we have to collaborate with the existing supply
chain. We did mistakes by trying to offer directly to the end users and then we have not been able to sell
then we started to evaluate the reasons. And now you know the open dialogue you take with your
potential customers is very helpful. You have to listen always, you know you have to ask questions, to
educate yourself, and then you have to engage with experts. And then of course, when you're a startup
company, you have to surround yourself with experts, okay? Because you don't know everything basically
you don't know anything. When you just started you have to have experts who are advisors to you who
have been in similar journeys before and building like successful ventures. You have to surround yourself
with those (experts) and feel free to call them one when you need okay here I we are failing here. Okay.
What do you think could be the reasons? You know, you have to be very humble. You have to ask
questions. Doing mistakes, not always but okay. You learn by doing this and everyone does mistakes.
Yeah. Okay. But then I mean, you should not repeat the same mistake more than twice I would say to be
a problem.
Question: Then how you do use the data and analysis , based on the business model that you
have everything based on the research. So how you take the data and analysis to figure out the
opportunity and allocate the resources, whatever capability you need for it.
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Answer: So there are two things here you have to distinguish between. The first one is market push and
market pull. You heard of this many times. Okay? So in the market push case you need a lot of data. You
know, you have to do oh my god, I mean you have to be very careful. And the market Pull, it's way easier
because someone is asking you for something and telling/giving you all the data and information. Okay
when I have a market pull case, my life is much easier than (push) okay. I'll give you an example. We
have been reached out by a company who needed help in batteries. When they reach out to us, then we
started to ask them okay guys, before we allocate our resources, can you please answer this? Why you
are doing this, what is different to the market, what are the anticipated volumes, all these kind of things
and then they made the data. They gave us the data that is the market pull, the market push while we
have a product we are trying to push it to the market, then we have to collect the data and how you collect
the data is basically market search reports. Sometimes they are not for free, you have to pay for that.
And then you have to use your business development team. Listen to business development. This is a
key here and then when you have meetings with the customers, ask as much questions as possible.
Every time you get a meeting with a potential customer use that time and effort getting a lot of information,
as much information as you can and document this because if you don't document that is another known
mistake by startups while they join a meeting, no one has taken minutes. No one has document the
difference. And that I mean there's no database you have to build your database by collecting information
and documenting them in the right way. And then this is not enough. You have to from time to time to
revisit what you have already collected. What are the missing pieces? Have we collected everything?
Are we still missing key information we don't have? Then you focus on those. Okay, here we are missing
this piece of information. How to get it done. You bet like okay, I plan for it. But there is no I believe a
standard way to do this. I think you have to do it in the way that it fits your model.
Question: For example, if you are going to the customer or like to the market and the market says
we are looking for this specific information, this kind of product. And let's say you find out that
what you are offering is not exactly what the market needs so there is a gap in between. So you
need to fill up this gap. Probably you need to develop some technology or you need some help.
Was it some case with you? And in that case, how did you cover up this gap? Were you able to
do it internally, Do you need some support from outside?
Answer: A lot of cases, so let me bring one example okay. The first product we have launched it was in
in 2019 was around after two years from our foundation. Okay, we launched a product it was a filament
for 3D printing. And that product was according to our market analysis. Or market search, the wall most
conductive plastic. Okay, it's very conductive because this new material is meant to be electrically
conductive. We made the plastic to be you know, very conductive. Okay. And then we launched that to
the market we believed or we had illusion, okay, this oh my god that will you know, revolutionise the
markets. Well…. it didn't happen, okay, that we learned that the market is interested in less conductive
material, but it's easier to process and to print our material was challenging to print, 3d print, you know,
so what we did there while we took the information, okay, the excitement level of course went down. Then
you need to be realistic with yourself. You need to okay when you fail, you have to be proud of that. Okay.
Don't say no. being arrogant, that doesn't help in business. You have to say, well, we failed, why we
failed and how we are going to succeed next time. Took the information and then we tried to develop a
next generation of product and then it works. Okay. So but we you know, we had drawn assumptions
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okay. But when we came to know that while that product is not selling, we analyzed why it is not selling
and then we engaged with a market expert and this that is our partner who is selling basically this product.
But it takes time and you know, it takes investments as well during like making new generations.
Question: Talking about your product. I've been working myself into this same field so I know it's
very unique. And it's kind of something like it, it's not even cheaper. For sure. I mean, this is
something not if everybody even wants to they are not willing to pay for it. the same price
Answer: Every new technology it's more expensive than the competing technologies already
established. That's well known, okay. Any generation of a new mobile phone will be more expensive than
the previous. And then here we are talking about Super materials. They are more expensive than
conventional materials. But then you have to have very strong unique selling points in our solution in
order to get someone to pay for it. And then the you have to be a painkiller. Not you know, just a vitamin.
No, I mean, right I mean, while they can go and have a walk in the sun to get some vitamin D if they if
they don't have in Sweden. But you have to solve a problem okay, and then the customer will pay for it.
If you're not solving a problem while it doesn't sell
Question: Now, you mentioned about the markets and how it's important to solve the problems.
Again, if you need to go deeper into this topic, what's the main factors to decide if you need to go
toward an open innovation collaboration or not?
Answer: You have to understand your product first. What are the features and then you have in the
other, so two sides, one side you have your product with its features. And then the other side is the
market possibilities. Okay? They can be like, say 10 different possibilities. As a startup, it's impossible to
go for all of them. You have to make choices you have to make okay, maybe maximum two, you have to
go for. So then if you are in like in our case and innovation, you have a lot of deep tech involvement,
science involvement, you have to go to the markets which are in need for this. Okay. You don't go for
consumers, for example, where they buy cheap things used for short time then they throw it away. They
don't have a good fit for you. Yes, you have to go for something who are really b2b. The one who
evaluates innovation in a good way. And then of course you have innovation should give your product or
your service, the (nice) touch at the end, right? Absolutely have to present yourself that you're an enabler
your technology back solution. Not only like cheaper things. Yeah. I mean, for example, If I take this piece
from this table, okay. Here we have two plastic pieces, okay, those and those I mean, I'm confident to tell
you this is the world's most conductive plastic. They are very electrically conductive. Okay, if I would take
those and put to cheap plastic with a value of 15 Swedish kroner, you see the difference? You are
converting something which is a commodity into something very advanced, enabling something never
possible before. So that you have to understand that is the mentality you have to get inside your team
and communicate this. If you tell someone that I have no no one cares, okay. Now if you tell I'm enabling
something, okay. Then people start okay. Yeah, well, yes, we need this not in this generational product
but in the generations to come. So then you are working with innovation in a good way.
Question: You mentioned that you need someone that gives the fancy touch to your product. To
bring it to the market. Let's say I can say that we consider it as your innovation partner because
you have a product, but that product is high tech, and how it should be to present it into a market.
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what's the process of choosing this partner? Let's say you have five or six different partners. So
you want to take maybe one or two out of it like you mentioned Yeah. What's your what's the
process of choosing it? What do you see what you look at?
Answer: You have to look if they evaluate innovation on the same level you do. we did this mistake. If
you talk to someone who doesn't really pay any attention to innovation done, they are the wrong partner.
You have to look to someone even evaluate innovations in the same level as you are or even higher. you
have to look at their speed, their you know, their history, how they have been evolving. Okay? By bringing
innovative products, you have to read their future by looking at their history. Okay, if they have long
history, long enough history, so this is how we usually do it. But sometimes you don't have much choices,
okay, as a small company. You know, you get desperate quite easily. It's okay not suppose you don't
have choices that you have to go with what is available in front of you. You don't always have the chance
to choose. Having the chance to choose is absolutely the best scenario. But it doesn't happen. Always.
Then you have to work with the available possibilities and try to make success out of them.
Question: Do you think that looking back into your history, probably you would have some events
where you chose a partner and then you found out it was not the correct plan right for you.
Answer: When I look at history, I love a lot okay, it was I mean, oh my god. I mean, I feel ashamed
sometimes. Oh, my God. But that's the nature that will be journey for everything. We evolve. Okay. Yeah,
the way we are thinking and the way we are working. And don't know. That is fine. Okay. While I mean
look at your choices. 10 years ago, you will say, Oh my god, I couldn't do better there. Yeah, but you
already did this, because at that time, it was the maybe the best decision you made. Yeah. But I mean
circumstances have changed. And I mean, you're a different person.
Question: Like you said now, how you evolved. Do you think that they would have been something
like support or some kind of external factors that in case you would have at that time and then
you would have been much better?
Answer: always I mean, there are rooms for improvement. If you look at your like in any experience, but
in startups, yes, in my specific case, definitely. I need to bring to bring some examples here. I would for
example, choosing network was …. you know, that some maybe at that time, given the the circumstances
maybe it was the best jokes, but when you have I mean, circumstances have changed. You have
developed one that's it's a different different level. But what what does matter when you're building a sort
of journey, okay. Team, absolutely important that main factor that is the main factor because this is
something will stay with you. Yes. Okay. That was that was stick forever. Even though you made an exit,
you will still connected somehow to investors. So that is absolutely important. And then of course, your
customers you don't have that much choices. Okay? That's why I don't want customers they are not in
our choice. Okay. We have to go with those who are paying Okay, fine, even though we don't like them.
Whatever, but we like their cash.
Question: And the investor, what the factors about them?
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Answer: investors you know, investment is beyond beyond cash. Way beyond cash. Investment is multi
components. In this single word investment, when you say investment or investors, cash, of course,
personality, engagement level and the most important branding, branding you need, you need a brand
when you are bringing an investor. If that investor for I mean they have whatever brand, they will influence
your brand. Your personal brand and yours business brand. So, that's why you have to be careful. You
know, when you're taking an investment, you're selling part of the company, you are getting married with
the investor absolute for at least 5/10 plus years. You I mean, that's long time commitment. That's why
you have to choose them carefully. if you have the right to do that, or if you have the boss, but sometimes
you don't you suppose okay, you get desperate you'd like just you need cash, okay that you pick whatever
you get. But if you have the, you know, the chance to choose, choose carefully. And I think in our case,
yes, we had the chance to choose. I think we have chosen very carefully. That's when you know, it's bad
to have investors that they are fully overlapping in the competence. You need investors to have a
spectrum of competence similar to Team Building. You don't have a team that everyone is knowing
exactly the same things and professional that's very boring. You have a spectrum of competence.
Someone in technology someone says someone and communication someone finances strategy. The
same for investors. You have to give them someone is big was I mean our investor, they are industrial.
They are everywhere. They have a fantastic brand. They are supportive, they can open doors for you.
So that the investment is not only their cash dividend the company is enabling us through door openings
through building relations through talking to the suppliers. So investment is me to conclude is way beyond
cash. This is a mistake startups usually they continue to do investment is not not money now. I mean
money is one component out of money.
Question: now again, return back to that innovation, as you're facing innovation, how to describe
how to manage between the benefits from the innovation and the risk.
Answer
Could you elaborate a little
Question: Yes. you mentioned about the market, about the needs. Let's assume that there is a
need and potential and you need to allocate resources and so that is kind of risk since you also
mentioned about some failure so how you will make a decision that this is an opportunity that
make sense to take risk for.
Answer: Yeah, very good question. Here you have to, you know, a risk reward relationship thing very
interesting. It's very interesting relationship. When you're when you're taking decisions or investment
decisions, resource allocation or allocation on on innovations, and here let's see innovations is to get the
product development and to get patent for example. This was this innovation for this specific question.
Yes. For first you have you should have a business strategy number one, and then you have to make a
very logical connection between your business strategy and your innovation strategy. If that connection
is bad, or it doesn't exist. Then you are doing something wrong. For example, in our case, our business
strategy is to be market leader and three business verticals we are working with. Okay. additives for
batteries. conductive plastics for the hydrogen economy of conductive applications, and electrification in
graphene and solid metals. Okay,
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Question: this is your vision?
Answer: This is our business strategy. We're working with this, okay. Okay. We have departments, we
have budgets, we have patents, we have customer relations we have it's a business strategy. Okay? Not
only in papers, but on our daily work, we have a strategy we are executing on it. So then when I am
looking at innovation in any of those verticals, any any new innovation should fit somewhere in that
stretch. If it doesn't fit. Well then we are scattering from our business strategy. So then it's well yes it's
interesting, keep it in the pipeline. We bring it when the opportunity arrives. What we do How We Do In
graphic we work very systematically on this, to keep controlled on the connection between the innovation
and the business strategy, but at the same time to see to have a pipeline, okay. You know, many things
in life. Usually you start with a pipeline, very broad at the beginning, a lot of ideas, a lot of potential
products, yes, and that this funnel gets like narrower and narrower and narrower. And those making it at
the end or through the funnel to the next step to commercial. They are a small percentage small
businesses. So that's why we those we are investing on innovation, they are basically in the beginning
of the funnel. We already know that not one of them will make it but those are making it they will return
all the investments for those didn't make. I mean similar in drug drug development by drug companies
while they invest in say hundreds of formulations. Okay, okay. Those making to be a product in the
market. Well, they are maybe 1% or 5%. But the revenues generated from the one or 5% covers all the
investments made for the hundreds, and that usually you have to work that way. Because if you are like
assuming that I mean, in our case, it's not that much as I said, it's the three verticals. Maybe some of
them, maybe two of them will not make it but if I get one of them to make it while I return on investments
I put and then I want to use to larger scale. You have to always work on this and if you work only on one,
it's very risky. You have it's always good to have I mean, you know, some more options.
Question: Okay. I'm curious about the how you start the idea itself, like someone who is from
the team, I have an idea or someone is just looking for the research and he found something in
the market.
Answer: I faced a very big challenge there. Because I still act as CTO, Chief Officer. Yeah, at the same
time CTO and switching the hats has been tiring some really, you know, you have to speak two languages
and different events in between meetings, even though there's like five minutes break in between. You
have to be prepared to switch. But that's good. I mean, at the personal level, I really learned how to speak
languages based on the audience to get what they want. The challenge I faced. I have today 20 people.
Half of it is R&D. I have six PhDs, including myself, and those people aren't innovative. Okay. I you know,
I have been choosing and I'm still involved in the recruitments I have been choosing the best of the best.
Okay, I want to build a team that is all the class to make this to win, literally. Okay, choosing the best of
the best we could find. Very proud of my team by the way. But the challenge is this super smart, innovative
team, never rest in innovation, even during fika time, like throwing all the good oh my god, hold your
horses. We need a process for this. We need a system. Hold your horses. Give me two weeks I will
develop my system, and I will need help with experts. We have our patent attorney firm. I called the guy
said Listen, I am you know, I need your help. He said well do it simple. So then I started drawing on the
whiteboard. It is a funnel, right? it starts with an idea. It evolves to the project evolves to product
development, and then it gets to maybe Destiny commercialization. Yeah, that I digitalized this, you know,
using existing technical tools, digital tools, and then everyone was an idea. And by the way, it's a legal
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requirement. If you are employed by a Swedish firm, and you have an idea related to the business of the
firm. That idea should be documented. Somewhere. Okay, you have to put your ideas somewhere in the
system. So then the our process is like this. Everyone has an idea, right? Only one page. It's called one
pager. So one page describe your idea very simple without giving any details. A lot of detail on one page.
Then the direct manager say R&D Manager will evaluate the idea. If the direct manager is positive, then
the idea comes to me for my evaluation. And here where I do the filtration and here where the ideas are
killed, or the ideas are brought into the next steps. I am the filter and I am the one who is making sure
that it's in line with the company's business strategy. So that as we see a commercial value, it's always
a problem we will be able to sell out of this innovation I take to the next level. And next level is to do a
project, generate data, make a patent application. Okay? If it's not, no, we document this. We bring it
later when it's needed. But it's very important to take all the ideas into a digital system. You keep track of
them. We have statistics, you know, we can show Okay, last year, how many ideas have been submitted?
How many have made it to the level of being a patent .We have this digitalized. We have it statistically
and then we can compare between years. If I see that while in 2021, we have been more innovative in
ideas than I have stopped to worry about my team why the performance is down? Isn't because of the
system or is it because we are busy with other things you know, statistics or my I love statistics.
Question: You said a lot of ideas are generated and then you are filtering it out even after filtering,
not all of them are going to the market at the same time. So that means that probably after some
time you have a locker with a lot of ideas that did not go into the commercialization, you did not
launch them right. What happens to them?
Answer: So we didn't lost them. We have them documented every idea is in a single pager, one pager,
the idea is described which problem is solving how it will be implemented blah, blah blah, very simple
version standardize the template whenever we would like to look in our, you know, drawer to see what
ideas do we have? Well, we can open this and look and then you will find a lot of crazy ideas. Okay, but
maybe we bring them on it's the right time. Yeah, have changed our business strategy or an opportunity
has presented itself. Then you well we already have this done you bring it back to the system.
Question: How is the process you're looking for the opportunity? How do you know that for
example, an idea which was generated three years back? Now you have something in the market
and this idea may help you
Answer: Well yes, then from the idea which is one pager so to speak digitally. It's one single page that
idea if we bring it after three years, we have to revisit the idea to see what is the what how the market
has changed and because three years it's still valid. So as someone else already launched something to
the market or is there any Patents before us in this? So then we revisit and we re evaluate and then if it's
still valid, still interesting. Yes, we bring to the system well, if it's not anymore, we lost an opportunity.
Question: What about the challenges you're facing to apply this process
Answer: From where do you want me to start,… the financial will be always okay for start-ups. You know.
I think I don't have issues with collaborations. I think we are saying no to collaborations we because I
mean, we want to handle those we already have in a good in a good high quality way. I would say, you
- 11 -
know, since the war started, I mean, the Russia war, everything has changed. Okay. There has been
Corona and then there has been the Russian war. This has changed a lot of things. Okay. I have been
raising capital since 2017. The market is dry. Investors are very careful. Okay. Yeah, two years. ago,
there has been a lot of money. You have a great idea. You showed some progress, get as much as you
want. So, we have to be I mean, we we would have been oversubscribed trillion. Now, situations has
changed. Now investors are much more careful. There are still the great investment opportunities for
great cases. If you're in the right segment. You have a great offering to the market. You should not be
worried and that is us. Okay. We are in the right segments. electrification, decarbonization, which is
happening now. There's still a lot of money there. So financial, yes, it is a challenge, not only for us, but
I think for everyone or so the other challenge is, it takes time to develop materials and to have product
development takes time and that time is money. Okay? You need to have patient investors who can wait
okay until your product or your technology has evolved to that level. So the other one is access to
competence. Okay, as a startup company, you need to recruit high profile attractive that build you help
you to build your brand. That when you're here to great sort of startups, companies pitching. One of their
key highlights is while we succeeded in recruiting the world's best XYZ experts, so team and competence
is great and when it comes to the seniors and experts high level to attract them to startups, that's not
straightforward because they already have great jobs, very high paid, why they should join a startup
company. You know, this is also a challenge so I named I think three of course the the list is much longer,
but those are the main three, so to speak.
Question: Kind of cooperation. If we talk about transfering the ideas between you as a business
model with another company, big company, large company, do you do this kind of stuff, do you
or any company they come to you they said like you have an idea we need to take that from your
for instance?
Answer: Yeah. So it's interesting if you if you read the history of innovation and how large companies
have been trying to do this. I feel really sorry about the investments they wasted. Okay. They put a lot of
money in trying to do this. Yeah. Many of the models failed. Okay. Some of them I know. I know
personally. If you take Swedish model, okay, as you think. Ericsson thought they had like an initiative
called Ericsson garage or something, trying to invite like people or startups with great ideas to collaborate
with them. They put a lot of money into this but never fly. Okay, never. So the reason so entrepreneurs
is thought that they are not idiots. There are smart people usually almost always. When a big company
is inviting startups. There is a risk of stealing ideas. Not only in products, but also in business models,
okay. And big companies. They are desperate for absorbing all these ideas. What happens when a big
company it happens a lot because I tell you, so big companies sometimes the bad guys okay. And I think
they know this very well. What happens they you know, they show that okay, we would like to collaborate
with a small company like startups. And they invite them and so what happens? They give a little money,
which is I call it fika money for startups, you know, like 100,000/ 200,000 Swedish kronor or something,
they start to avoid the entrepreneur get very excited. Okay. Well, what happened that the idea has been
absorbed. Yes. And then the big corporate is making, you know, some improvements here and there
based on those ideas, and this poor entrepreneur is still struggling in the same place. And it's happened
a lot okay. That's why the trust I think trust relationship between smart sore small startup companies and
big corporate, that the trust is, you know, is damaged, to be honest, okay. And at least me being from the
startup side. While you have not always trust big, we have you know, we have to be careful when you're
- 12 -
with the big guys, because for them to get what they want. They might leave you where you are. As
simple as it sounds. That is my very honest opinion. But not all of them, though. Some of them they are
really great partners. Great collaborators are doing it for a reason for a win win. If it's what a win win, then
it's great, but you have to make things you know and contracts and to be clear, almost always it's not for
a win win. It's for a single win.
Question: So, obviously, when you started for sure, at that time, this was more like the issue that
how you're going to trust, to what extent you can trust a big company. But now after experience,
I will say some significant experience. Where are you standing now?
Answer: I'm standing by asking the right questions. Requesting the right agreements and documents to
be in place. All these kind of things. I think we didn't have we didn't have that experience in the past three
years, it was better. But of course, I am not eliminating the risk of any mistakes
Question: and how you manage the IPs and the collaboration was big companies
Answer: If the partner is a big corporate, they will almost always say that any IP generated of this would
be on 100% by us. This will be sorted. Yes, almost always. And NDAs or any kind of contracts. You have
to be careful there. You have to be really careful to review contracts and a very good one. Yes. Try to be
to be harsh in negotiation is trying to say well, no, we don't do that. And if you know that they are desperate
to work with you. And you have a very, very interesting potential IP. My recommendation before you start
any collaboration with anyone, try to have IP secured. Okay, it's better that you already have IP in place
and then you discuss or you have an NDA covering you in a good way. Okay. If you don't have that
there's a risk that someone will take the idea and then it will be difficult to claim. it was your idea if you
don't have a proof, okay, by already filed a patent application or something. So that's why you have to be
careful there before you engage much and the dialogue was any partner tried to get the IP sorted out.
Question: Does it ever been issue be the like a small company not a big one, but a small company?
Answer: We work with both, SMEs and with large corporates. With smaller companies. It's much easier
you know, they don't have legal departments. They are as poor (financially) as you are. Well, fine, okay.
You don't come to the agreement. Okay. It's you know, easier but in big corporates, it's complicated
because immediately, okay, your contact was sought. I will ask my legal department and here you're
sought to be worried. You know, it's easier to work with smaller entrepreneurial driven companies in that
regard.
Question: We read about the nordic leadership style where that engagement delegation from the
leaders to followers, that's type of the leadership, how it's help the employee to do their best.
especially that you come from different type of cultures to another culture completely that have
different type of leadership, could you please elaborate how that's help the employee in terms of
the innovation?
Answer: innovation is appreciated. Okay. In Sweden, it has value and there is an ecosystem developed
for this. This is a few compare Sweden with different countries when it comes to innovation. Yes. Thanks,
- 13 -
Sweden and the past, maybe hundreds of years they have developed a system. Okay, how universities
are working and there's even like, you know, ministry for innovation and enterprises, and they have
vinnova for exams for them. So there is an ecosystem that has been developed and the culture is
innovations are appreciated and they have a long history of inventing. If you look at the Swedish history,
great inventions came from Sweden. What could be the reason for that? You know, they are relaxed and
innovation needs relaxation. And then when you're relaxed, you are your brain is you know, creative.
Okay? If you're like stressed and running between different things, while a large part of the creativity is
negatively impacted, if you take any of the I mean, we I mean, if I look at the people living there, and ask
them to be creative, well, they are young, they are running to make their living. To get gasoline cylinder
or, you know, innovation, you know, to innovate. You need to be relaxed, you need to be you know,
comfortable with I believe, as you need ecosystem where you can get the support needed for this,
Question: you need to get out of your survival mode and also the creative mode?
Answer: However, this is not the only I mean, if you if you look at other nations what drives innovation
could be as well the industrial sectors certain countries are working with, you know, defence is a big
driver for innovation, and almost all the new engineering related inventions they start usually from the
defence and then they are converted into like, consumers and others. And why is this because they are
first early adopters and they have a lot of funding for the for, you know, innovation needs funding. If you
don't have money, I mean to put on innovation, you get nowhere. Exactly. We do find a patent and it's it's
a lot of cost, and that is just the first step and then when you get the patent I mean, then the cost starts
to accumulate. There should be someone paying for those costs. Exactly.
Question: Especially in case of SMEs, this is a huge because they are already short with the
finances. But do you think that this is also a kind of a negative thing for the SMEs because
sometimes they are so desperate. They are short of finances, they want to have some like source
of income, and even though sometimes they are really on a good starting point, but they are
forced to sell the idea to the big companies because they just wanted to have some funding?
Answer: Innovation is not only patience, okay. So patience is one of the one component of innovations.
Innovation can be really in everything. Okay, and the way you are working you the way you're
communicating, you know, the way you're handling your relations to the customers that can be innovation
there as well without having any IP file in this environment. But let's stay the IP part of the innovation.
Yes, startups usually if you don't have an IP as a startup while you don't have a value proposition to
defend, so that is your kind of like shelter, okay, from the competitive market, you know, where everyone
is trying to get me into a startup company. You are creating confusion to other companies. Okay, and
you are the confusing component of the ecosystem. You come to make, you know, disruption, they big
guys they don't like that. I mean, for those newcomers, I mean, look at Tesla what they did for the
automotive sector. You know, they stressed everyone like hell, and then they made them to change their
business strategies to go electric. They did. You know, that's why startups if you are not protected in a
good way or IP is one of your protection. Tools. You have to go with but sometimes, startups they go to
the extreme they try to like Patent Patent Patent. Before they find the clients. I was in a pitching event
and there was a company said that well, we have 41 patents. Then I started to calculate the costs for
this. Okay, and one day investment and those 41 patents would be returned. Well you know, you have
- 14 -
to be careful because Patent they are good, but not always. Sometimes, I mean, they are just like heavy
cost you have to take with you. But what can be done as well I'm you look at Coca Cola okay, it's known
in chemistry Coca Cola recipe while they have a secret trade secret, and that is sometimes is even more
interesting than a Patent itself. Because of beta, okay, at least in my field. There will be almost always
ways out of Patents. I can I tell you one example. You're not recording right. Okay.
- 15 -
Company B
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
industry, people, company, find, innovation, step, case, project, raw material, idea, money, sweden,
startups, SMEs, chemical industry, resources, experience, subsidies
Q:
How do we start with the idea, business model, and company goals?
Interviewee
very simple to provide a potassium, fertilizer potassium, potassium sulphate and manufactured in a
fossil free or fossil fuel free context utilizing waste or byproducts from the green industry as raw
material to produce a product which is produced today in a forest-based way. That's the difference I
would say.
Q:
How did you come up with the idea? Is it like by research?
Interviewee
It makes a lot of things. I'm a chemical engineer. I work in many different things. So, the industry says
more than 20 years, I worked with petrochemical industry, oil and gas refinery, paper industry, steel,
fertilizers industry, I used to be the sales manager at the time for Alfa Laval selling equipment loans for
fertilizers industry. perhaps have a little bit of personality that it would be interesting to know. But I like
to know, pay attention to detail and the idea started as an environmental project actually, from the pulp
industry. I was involved in realizing that a lot of chemicals are lost and wasted for no reason. Which is
often the case today. And from there, I think came the idea to use those resources to produce
something bit I mean, circularity has been around I think for centuries in chemical industry.
Everything stems from the continued use of fossil fuels. So all the chemical industry is geared towards
utilizing oil and gas as a resource at the base for energy and for raw material. And downstream of that
and then chemical industry I think is quite adept and well experience to use device and byproducts and
so on, just good to bear so for organization, they start with a cracker and an oil for the heavy fuel oil or
gas. From there you have a downstream and petrochemical chain with hundreds thousnds of different
products and it actually the main product that generates a byproduct at the same time to co-produce
and to try to utilize those as feedstock for the next step. So I think in a way it's that approach is not
different, but it's just the approach now that we do it in a fossil fuel free context rather than relying on
continuing to use of oil for energy and for raw material for producing a product which is there is a
demand for today.
Q:
Is there any company that have the same business model in the world or are you the first one sorted
this?
Interviewee
I think there's a lot today, a model I think maybe all the steel companies I mean if you talked about the
whole hydrogen revolution.
- 16 -
Q:
but I mean the same IP or the model that you are working in, potash fertilizers?

Interviewee
There's a lot of activities going on. They're launching a green ammonia project up in the north of
Sweden. Instead of relying on one oil and gas to produce ammonia urea they rely on hydrogen and
electricity as the raw material I mean when nitrile power and then and then water to produce hydrogen
and utilize that as a feedstock instead, and then you have I think you have a lot of mining companies
utilizing old waste resources, where you find minerals, which today again, yesterday was discarded as
a waste. Today, people view it differently and try to use it as a raw material instead and so I think
there's a lot of actually similar activities. And I think that's a trend driving it. it's just I think it's a more
focus on that. type of work is today.
Q:
When do you have this idea what was the step or what was the process in a summarized way, how you
moved further with this one, how you developed it into industrial project kind of thing. screwed it up?
Interviewee
I think we did look at the industry, this process is old. It's from the 1950s. So, it has been proven on a
larger scale and from there on, we focused on building the case around the project. Financing. So, we
found the buyer for the product. I think that's the most critical one, so, you get that in place. And then, of
course the work in the back end for the supply of raw materials. And then it's a classic, I think projects
financing setup, built on agreements and structure around a technology. And if it's a new technology,
you have to prove to course in a pilot phase, typically that's a step to go through, but in this case, the
technologies already proven,
Q:
So the technology is already proven and you didn't get one to the prototype, in that case, obviously, the
technology is already there. So, everyone knows it. There are standard components that you put
together to meet the fertilizers. But since your source of component or the raw material, it was not as
standard as the industry is right now using did you need to somehow verify that output would have the
same efficiency as you have done so you need to do it.
Interviewee
We did ourselves
Q:
that was it like completely your internal process. You didn't need any collaboration?
Interviewee
We did some collaboration with the industry. We did some collaboration with research institutes and so
on the industry so there was a face like that, but I think the classic of pilots that normally is required and
when in this type of industry, if, for example, it takes where you need to have a pilot, which is often the
case, but that's often when there's no technology provider no existing knowledge around the production
and then take the step of course.
Q:
- 17 -
During this period, you need to prove your business model, what are the main challenges that you
faced?
Interviewee
I would say finance. That's a big part of it. innovation, starting with ideas, how to finance how to get the
time to spend on what you want to do. How do you get someone to believe in finance you're idea
Basically, I think that's a big step about the challenges, and the good team around you, with the right
knowledge and the right experience, of course, this is also important.
Q:
As a startup since obviously you are experts in your field, but you were not already in the industry as
entrepreneurs, what kind of other issues you had to go through when you were like going to the
investor or somewhere in the industry to introduce your idea what you want to do. Or in your whole
process. What are the issues you have faced? I know that you have already had an IPO to secure
yourself. Is It help you somehow?
Interviewee
IPO helps with the money of course, which is needed. I mean, that was the goal in the end and that
was a challenge for a long time to actually find the funding for the project, of course. So that was the
whole reason for the IPO. I would say.
Q:
It’s taken around 12 years since you thought about the idea until you established the business, which
the process that you started with until the end.
Interviewee
It's like a harmonica sometimes. Or accordion sometimes. Interesting energies up and then down. But
that's a normal process. I think it goes through to do something. You face a lot of challenges. You have
a setback, reassess. And then you find another way forward. I think that has to be experienced to
understand how that reality is actually going to be difficult if you haven't done it yourself and being
there.
Q:
What do you think are the capabilities and resources that SMEs and startups like your company need
during this time period?
Interviewee
Capital. I think if you have person with an idea to do something, and someone that can because they
have perhaps not the best at conveying a message, we can have a perfect idea then to transfer that
into a message to make it interesting for someone to invest money, which is basically paying for the
time that they can spend dedicated I mean, they're patient one day idea I think that's the first step they
need help with. And so I guess all these kinds of startup, and advisors in the last couple of years.
You've seen tremendous growth. I think then of course, you need to build a team around that. But I
think, first of all, because people can do it on their free time on the side. But if you want it to be
accelerated and decrease the time I think you need someone to allocate resources money than to free
people's time to spend on the idea
Q:
What is the best way to select the right team members for a startup who truly align with the business
idea, especially considering limited resources and the need for early commitment?
- 18 -
Interviewee
There are many challenges and potential pitfalls along the entrepreneurial journey, and it's inevitable
that mistakes will be made. It's crucial to have a team composed of individuals who are genuinely
interested in the project and possess an honest, sincere approach. Unfortunately, you may encounter
numerous people who are solely motivated by monetary gains in this line of work. These individuals,
focused only on profits and returns, should be avoided as they may not be dedicated to the long-term
success of the business or other important aspects of the venture.
Q:
If you were given the chance to launch another startup, what are the steps or mistakes from your
previous experience that you would want to avoid this time?
Interviewee
This concept is fascinating on multiple levels, as it not only generates fresh ideas but also encourages
people to think differently about progress. It has the potential to inspire numerous other initiatives
focused on transforming or innovating processes, ultimately leading to reduced dependency on fossil
fuels. However, it's important to understand that this significant shift won't happen overnight; it will be a
gradual process involving incremental changes.
Q:
Do you believe that the introduction of new regulations, such as those from the Green Deal, will assist
in promoting and supporting green innovation and investment?
Interviewee
Yeah, of course, take this example, this CEO of Northwalt came out and I think he talked about an
example. The plant we built in the US today will save 10 billion under the new law (Inflation Reduction
Act). for that one, but just making the EU aware how important it is inaccessible. it's substantial. And it
has a tremendous effect on a company like that. if you can get that kind of money, subsidies, and
actually this is also commercial project because somebody's looking at our we say that expected the
production costs for us in our case, it's actually this 20% Or even lower than the dominating process
today. So, we don't require any subsidies as opposed to buy all of the biofuels for them to reach the
market. They rely on subsidies from the government. Otherwise, it will be too expensive. And in our
case, we don't need that. so, we don't have any substance.
Q:
You referred to a Spanish company involved in the New Deal, focusing on green ammonia, hydrogen,
and fertilizer production. Do you believe this will create competition that could hinder innovation from
other regions, or is this type of fertilizer similar enough that it won't make a significant difference?
Interviewee
It's a different type of product. but I think it's actually helps because it makes just the industry more like
collaboration. I think it's good. But in a way, of course, if they have huge corporations going into that it
could store like innovators and small companies, I mean, producing or entering with their ideas. But I
think that's been the case for hundreds of years. Also, that ideas get canned because of the
corporation. just purchase the idea don't want basically to see realized. So good but I hope they have a
serious interest if they seem to have seen this project. It's and of course it's a good step also.
- 19 -
Q:
Coming back to the collaboration or whatsoever you had the cooperation with during your process.
Would it be possible for you to go into more details or like, give us some more information about what
kind of collaboration you had, if you had any? And how would you assess it?
Interviewee
I think I can explain it like this. I don't want to go into detail. But generally, I think it's nothing different
than if you talked about from this context with the idea of generating ideas, startups SMEs, and so on.
There is a person or group of people with an idea firstly, we need to find the kind of branch specific
organizations we called them research institutes that have a focus towards that area where the group is
working in and then try to ally with them and make first sign NDA and make joint cooperation and then
find an industrial park or tow even better sign NDA and bring them into and then create a small fluster
with a research institute that can validate the idea together with the industry. I think that concept is kind
of quite strong to build on. It's a good foundation, kind of similar like what they do in in EU projects that
you incorporate the university and industry and then another company perhaps with idea driving it but,
in this case, the company would be the SME on the start, but organizing together a couple of industries
and the university.
Q:
Do you believe that funding is primarily being directed toward smaller-scale development projects
rather than larger initiatives?
Interviewee
Indeed, it is essential to start somewhere. Initiating projects, even on a small scale, can be a great way
to make progress. This approach is somewhat similar to what is done with EU barges, but it may be
more efficient to focus on smaller-scale initiatives as they can avoid lengthy administrative and
regulatory processes, which might slow down progress.
Q:
How challenging was it for you to locate research groups specializing in your area of interest,
considering that you mentioned beginning your journey around 12 years ago?
Interviewee
I think we just googled it. You look and call around; you search for information and talk to the industry.
Maybe they are clustered around some kind of like pulp industry. They're different research institutes.
It's the same with the oil and gas industries that are their recent institute on fertilizers, perhaps at the
same time they have EFO international fertilizer associations there. So, then they would probably guide
you to contact so now like its more research, not rocket science.
Q:
Are these specialized research groups willing to engage in conversations with individuals who are not
affiliated with any organization?
Interviewee
As we live In Sweden, so the culture thing is also difference if you think that from different countries.
Q:
- 20 -
When considering collaboration with different groups, did you find it easier to work with larger industry
players or smaller entities like your own? Did factors such as trust have any impact on your ability to
collaborate effectively?
Interviewee
Yeah, it has this with open innovation is because, it's two sides to it. It's great I think if you can use it,
and if people are honest about it, but it can be used just to steal people's ideas, and I think it happens,
unfortunately, and I don't know have an example, but I would assume so. But I don't know how well you
can regulate around it that people in an open innovation team that the information does not leave that
group of people and answer in someone else's head and then they run off with it into something else.
Because I did actually participate in some open innovation exercises before a long time ago. and it was
a really great environment, people were open, creative and generating lots of ideas. And often it was
the universities generating a lot of ideas that eventually could be worth millions to the industry. but I
don't know exactly where and what happened after that, but it's a good way I think to quickly generate
and come up with ideas. if you think about it from that perspective from IP rights or whatever to be good
for people to be absolutely open. I don't know how you safeguard that.
Q:
Can you explain the complexities involved in registering an IP, as well as the financial aspects
associated with paying for it?
Interviewee
Yeah, it's not a big in Sweden IP is, if you want to file a patent is up to 50K SEK. If you want you can
get perhaps, subsidies like a grant to file a patent is quite common in Sweden. And all these kind of
things networks, have cooperation with state funded companies like Almi but other countries that it
looks like maybe it's more difficult for them comparing in Sweden, and I think to file a patent together
with the patent lawyers not too complicated is like an exercise around 50K to 100K SEK. And then of
course, when you get it you will start to generate some costs over the years of course, especially if you
want to make a big world patent in many countries. I think you need a financial partner because then it
gets expensive. Let's just work with it to find it requires a lot of time, energy and money.
Q:
Do you have a plan to have R&D department in the future?
Interviewee
We haven't thought about R&D yet because I think that's also in the ongoing business.
We need to see improvement and production, some ideas of how to exploring specific R&D
department.
Q:
So, you are more thinking still about collaborating with outside like universities or some R&D which
already exist independently.
Interviewee
If we come up with a concept, I believe the initial choice will involve paying to go there. Perhaps it will
be the optimal choice in a few years, I'm uncertain. However, there are no current plans to share
research and development information. On a personal level, I find the whole idea enjoyable.
Being an entrepreneur is living as an entrepreneur.
- 21 -
Q:
What you think if you just analyzed your situation, maybe a few years back, but have you learned
something new in this process? How would you take the collaboration or innovation steps or moving
further? What would you improve based on your experience learning?
Interviewee
One crucial aspect for entrepreneurs or teams working on an idea is not to focus solely on the idea
itself, but to direct their attention towards understanding the market and the industry landscape. By
delving deep into the market, they can gain valuable insights into the current trends and players,
helping them identify potential partners or customers to collaborate with. This approach is vital
because, without a strong understanding of the market, an idea, no matter how fantastic or interesting,
may not translate into a profitable venture if people are not willing to pay for it. Some entrepreneurs
might not have this insight initially, but it can be a valuable learning experience for them.
Q:
Can you provide suggestions on how to find the off-taker more effectively in a challenging market?
Interviewee
Again, I think it's a little bit of R&D work to start with Google, you look around and I think it's actually a
combination of your own experience, what you know, when you start that search, look for them. And
then I would say “base sales activity” find the prospects, calling, just talking, learn more as time goes by
and then eventually finds buyer, so you set up that target find one and then you start somewhere then
you don't know exactly where that will lead you. In the end, because we knew already we do from the
beginning when I'm done it already.
Q:
There is currently what’s called the presence of intermediary parties that act as a bridge between
innovators and potential collaborators, have you experienced working with them, and do you believe
that utilizing their services would have made your journey more streamlined and efficient?
Interviewee
Could be if you find them, if they exist, I don't know who they are would be in our case. Maybe they
exist in other industries, in other areas, because it all comes back to knowledge and experience. I think
finding the people as you said, the good team around you with the right knowledge and the right
experience. A lot of people say there happen, but they've never done it. and that's I think it's a
challenge also as make room for people or person to figure out who's ready. Who can do it, because
you need diverse a lot of people that come up with suggestions. So, I think the team needs to surround
themselves with the deal worse, okay. That's actually to pick up the phone and move something
forward or get the information and send even a technical book, the main thing so you make the
agreement, so you move everything forward all the time.
Q:
Can you please clarify the milestones and phases of your plan, and explain how you measure success
for each phase? How do you define success in this context – is it through securing partners, obtaining
funding, or achieving specific goals?
- 22 -
Interviewee
We work with milestones, like the time plan, you don't have a lot of activities. that's an exercise itself to
figure out what things needs to be done to reach the goal and how long time does it take. So, I think
that could be a good resource from my learning through this project. The right person or brain that can
work with time plans. So, someone that knows and has experience and set up a time plan the goal and
activities that need to be executed a follow through and to reach the goal. And that is also I think, the
type of typical mindset, that capability can be learned from experience, this is a good skilled, I think
more important skills.
Q:
Talking about skills again. So, when you started for example, you went through different phases. For
example, first, you had the idea, you tried to sell it, you got some interesting parties, then you started
working on finances and so on. What's your experience that what would you say that on different
phases, if you can elaborate what kind of skills are more important than the rest of the whole set of
skills? So, for example, you need a lot of skills for sure. But for the first phase, you need this like selling
as a very strong point otherwise you cannot go for the second phase.
Interviewee
That's also a good skill to have. I think a lot of if you're talking about engineers, a lot of engineers are
kind of introverts as by education. A little bit by I was, I still am. But I think it's the schooling. I mean,
we're taught that one plus one should equal two no exception. And if you can find it to be three, it
doesn't matter how you're motivated because it's the wrong, so we tend to not look for different
solutions. So, maybe you need to be a little bit thick. It's good if you started when you were younger.
Maybe when naiver and don't have any.
Q:
I take it like you what you wanted to mention is that flexibility or more broad mindedness is something
that you need to have in order to move further for some of the phases.
Interviewee
Don’t be afraid to take the contact and get the ‘NO’ takes the further to the next step to ‘YES’, I think
there are a lot of stops there for the idea, it's presented someone else I don't like it, then you'll forget
maybe not such a good idea after all, kind of stop there but just see it as a step stepping stone to the
next you taking you closer to, because initially you get a lot of nots for sure.
just goanna you find your energy, work a lot on it. And then you have a setback. Maybe you take a step
back, you reassess what to do. And then from there you move maybe in another direction.
Q:
What was your first frustration, when you got the No?
Interviewee
I called one of the largest fertilizers companies in the world, their sales manager and asked him if he
wanted to buy the product. And he told me no, we have taken care of that already try with the next one
on the list, make a list. The one you want the most to contact and last. Don't contact them first.
Because along the way you will learn to navigate and how to change your presentation. Have them
read them the likelihood they say yes, is higher. you get to be able to get a lot of notice along the way,
just pick yourself up when you get smacked down by someone.
Q:
- 23 -
Now about fertilizers. How do you think the open innovation influences the industry in general?
Interviewee
As I said, I think it's great because I think as many of those big global industries here it's kind of a little
bit locked, they don't you rock the boat. Don't change too much. One time, but you know, the open
innovation it's all about that, I mean, a leap. Maybe not just make a small change, then I think it's a
threat but could be. I think it both depends on, I think, a great person. Now in chemical industry is Elon
cavity, the CEO of Solvay, if you know are fantastic approach, I think this whole openness and what
they want to do at least what I can see when I read it and so on. Sorbet is one of the largest chemical.
She's a chemical engineer, and she became the CEO survey a couple years ago. I think she has a
greater mindset than where she wants the company to be in the future. I think she's really open to
these kinds of arms.
Q:
As you mentioned about the big companies because as you mentioned, that they are kind of locked into
their view because of several reasons and for sure, I agree that there are two main reasons that we
know the first one is that they are already in the business with the customer and they don't want to lose
them. The other one is that they are so confident into their system. They think everything is perfect. We
do not need to have something new. What are the advantages that startups or small companies have
over the already established big companies base in case of innovation or starting a new way, new
methods? Or, like you have started something unique something out of the ordinary?
Interviewee
The advantage the small company or the innovators have, I think, is they are not threatened by change
when the big corporation is because in the big corporation, you have sales they are afraid, managers, a
lot the managers. Their main interest is not to lose the customers or change business. I think they're
mainly interested is keeping the business as it is running, on a personal level it would affect their jobs. If
something changes and not work, that's completely natural. So, if something new is happening the
industry and changing they could either embrace it or try to stop it. And then I think it takes a guy like
Elon Musk to change the car industry.
Q:
On the other side, if I asked you what are the disadvantages startups have other than capital?
Interviewee
Time resources. I mean, that's all for money, but time is time. Time is the limiting factor. And also, of
course, initially you have what to call it you need like momentum, or you need quantum maybe it's
meant to delete this topic, but you need for it to take off. If you start too small, it never takes off. You
need to make the baby grow.
Q:
But do you think that that's the reason why most of the startups at the end fail because either they start
too small, or they think too big which is out of that limit?
Interviewee
You need a luck as well also so, you need to practice a lot, you've got a lot of good luck as well for
everyone and you get noticed by someone. But still I think I've dealt with some money, and they often
raise the question ecosystem you need an ecosystem of financing or industry support in different steps
- 24 -
in a way. Many people mentioned that the Sweden’s system is quite good to see that support from
different perspectives but maybe that there is this problem with really getting off and get your idea into
commercial use.
Then I think the US is much better, as a chemical engineer, the system there allowed you to fail. I
mean, when you go, you go 100%. It's not like here we do a little bit and see what fellowship we take
that's the mindset.
Q:
What recommendations do you have for government or regulatory actions that could help change this
trend, considering the risks involved?
Interviewee
I think one aspect, of course, is departmental permitting in Sweden, that's a process that could be
speeded up. I believe, tremendously. Can be, and I think even actually what you need more funding as
well from government subsidies and allowing more funding to go through smaller initiatives because a
lot of money finds its way to large corporations that perhaps don't need the funding like ABB, for
example. Would they really need 100 million SEK to launch R&D project or could they pay for it
themselves? So, I think that kind of, but then of course, the people that give up the grant believed more
a big corporation can follow through than smaller. but sometimes I think you could push a little bit more
than funding available towards the smaller companies as well.
Q:
What advice would you offer to SMEs and startups on adopting open innovation in their businesses,
and how can they make the process easier compared to their current approach?
Interviewee
You need to go with that to try and try and try again and then I don't think there's like a shortcut. Or to
say that, yeah.
Q:
And I think it's even good to go through these difficulties because then you learn because if you don't
go through this, maybe you will make the mistake somewhere in the future. So, it's better to do it in the
start so that you learn.
Interviewee
The fear of failure is another step towards the goal almost, I mean, you can make it the general
roadmap maybe, but I think a lot of the cases are kind of unique in a way. It is. I mean, there is of
course a structure you can follow. But you always have different things you need to navigate them
along the way to learn and try again.
Q:
Do you believe that being a listed company can provide benefits to SMEs in terms of innovation, even
before starting production or construction of plants? Should SMEs consider going public for this
reason?
Interviewee
Yes, it does. Both. Work to be a listed company. So, it's another thing you have to worry about as a
listed company that you maybe don't need to worry about if you're a private or off the stock market
- 25 -
An example, I know the CEO for company recently listed. So, he says now 50% of my time, I need to
spend on something else. So, I need a lot more good people around me that can do what I did before.
And that was kind of new to him, as well so it changes your working day. So, it's pros and cons.
- 26 -
Company C 1
Q
Could you please give us the background about Company C?
Interviewee
In 1971, the company was inaugurated and started up in Sweden. At the time, it was a joint venture between an
Italian company that owned some patent rights and IP regarding what was called "dimensionally stable anodes,"
which is now a very niche area, but at the time, this was a big breakthrough and innovation OR the completely
new way of making electrodes for the small chemical industry with much lower energy consumption and much
longer lifetimes. So, it was a win-win situation for everyone, and the other joint venture partner was an
industrial owner at the time; today, it is part of the large XX chemicals group. At the time, it was a Swedish
company that saw the merits of this invention and became a joint venture partner, and after 20 years, they took
over 100% of Permascand in the mid-1990s. So, if you have to go through it again, skip another 30 years and say
that. Today, Permascand is returning to its original focus of electrochemical cell components, as it was in 1971.
As a result, it's a very niche market, and we've divested a number of other mechanical workshops over the
years.
which we no longer have in the house. We discovered that it would say to handle a variety of metallic materials.
Titanium is a lot of all of the different steel alloys that have been developed over the years, but we are back to
work today. Then, when a small chemical cell product is made primarily of titanium, nickel, and steel, this
catalytic coating is the key element, and we add value.
Q
How has open innovation in electrochemistry and material processing contributed to Company C throughout its
history and milestones?
Interviewee
Over the first 25 years, basically when we were in this joint venture, the innovation and R&D part was kind of on
the next level, primarily in the partner's company residing at the time. As a result, Company C was more of a
manufacturer and technical service provider. I would say that the innovation as a whole began in the early or
mid-1990s at Company C. So we have 30 years of experience working with innovation. Furthermore, the concept
of "open innovation" may not have been widely discussed at the time. I believe that something else is present. It
has been 15-20 years since the concept of "open innovation" became known.
With that said, one point in my definition of open innovation is that you actively collaborate with others outside
your own company, and company C has had a very good collaboration with some universities in the field of
electrochemistry, as one example, where the input and also some of the work has been done over the years, is
Trondheim University and we still have relations with these universities. In Sweden, the closest university with a
high skill set in electrochemical engineering to where we are is KTH in Stockholm has a long tradition. In
addition, Company C has been focusing on electrochemical engineering. So, these are still very active partners in
various types of Ph.D. work and with relationships where we meet and participate in conferences and have
some papers published occasionally, but also in journals that include personnel from our company. So, you could
say that there has always been a kind of open innovation in that area.
Otherwise, I would say that our company portfolio has always been focused on supporting our clients, and then
the input and understanding of our clients' processes such as has been an important part, which means that we
today work very closely with our clients and prospects in phases where, for example, we have a lot of clients
coming in with new existing tweaks or technology, which could be in the hydrogen space, which is one example
which is very focused of today. For example, there are many newcomers entering the market who have created
- 27 -
versions of existing technology but are not yet commercially viable. And this is where our company comes in,
and it's a little like our water treatment business from a few years ago.
However, you would define open innovation as working with clients and having their input, and it's perhaps not
truly open innovation because we don't invite everyone, but we work in what I would call a semi-open approach
with our clients and trying to bring the best to the table and understanding and working together on developing
and making their technology commercially available for the end customers, which could be chemical plants.
Q:
It appears that what I heard from you when you founded this company in 1971 was based on some new
technology developed primarily by an Italian company, and it appears that your company collaborated with this
company due to their skills. Whatever you were doing on the production side to launch this new technology in
Sweden, you mentioned that your company was involved in open innovation in the mid-1990s. Why don't you
see your company’s initial startup as a process of open innovation, because it was also more or less the same?
Interviewee
Of course, in some ways you could be correct. And if you use my wording or what I call it more “open
innovation", it was like this that they started up and it was a 50%-50% joint venture at the time. So, of course, I
believe you are correct in some ways in this area over time, as it has become more of an open innovation
process.
They were input and collaboration from about 7 different companies in total at that time in this "ownership”. If
you look around the world, Asia, the United States, Europe, Japan, and so on... We're like a team. It was the type
of open process that was driving the future development. If you say from the 1980s to the present. That was an
intriguing point of view.
Q:
And you were the part of this process from the very start. Or did you join the company later?
Interviewee
I joined the company as an employee in 2002, but from my PhD work and then later in working in the owner
company of Company C in the from the mid-90s I was irregular in contact and did actually some R&D work on
behalf of Company C even though I would not employee for more than five years before joining.
Q:
Company C appears to be in an ideal state for open innovation and collaboration. What I'd like to know is,
looking back from when you first joined the company until now, what do you consider to be the most
important? How would you describe the characteristics of this company that have contributed to its rapid
advancement or involvement in the collaboration and innovation process?
Interviewee
I believe we have all tried to be very focused on our clients, understanding their needs, and learning more about
the end use of our products, and I believe this willingness or focus has always been an important part of this, so I
believe it is one of the important parts. But, of course, we must state that there has been a long tradition of
technically focused management, or, to put it another way, the business has not always been as technically
focused, or the financial aspects of the business have not always been as strong as the technical aspects.
- 28 -
Q:
If I understand correctly, it appears that top management is more concerned with technological innovation than
with business. So, is that right?
Interviewee
Yeah. in a way, I would describe at least the first 40 years of the company and that is up to the point when we
did a management buyout of the company from this Chemical Group owner back in 2012 since then I would say
we have gradually and moved more into also having the business financial focus also and we're creating
opportunities to reinvest in the company over that part time.
Q:
You also mentioned that there were a lot of several investors or partners in this consortium you mentioned
seven investors all over the world or from different countries. How was your experience communicating with
companies from different regions with different backgrounds and different cultures? How was your learning
from there? Can you please put some more detail light into it?
Interviewee
This is before I joined as an employee. I would say that this was for the first 20-25 years up to the early 1990s.
This was very active. But then when the chemical company today Y acquired 100% of the company, then this
network kind of stopped to exist. but up to that point what I've heard, and I know these older guys quite well
worked her, this was a very fruitful and good discussion on because there were technical seminars, for example,
every year and over the years, all of these different group members had developed their own, you could say
focus areas which they really we're experts inside towards different types of industry.
Some were more focused on water treatment applications, some were more focused on electrowinning, how to
get metals out from solutions. And as Company C we were very focused on a classical electric chemical industry
like, choler alkali chloride. So, everybody has had built through this open innovation process I would say.
A strong contribution in different areas which they could share and inspire and gave valuable input for each of
the other companies to take into their own portfolio and try to and make some good improvements or new
products areas from.
Q:
How do you ensure effective sensing of external trends? For example, if we're talking about a new product,
what is the typical process, and how do you collaborate with the main client?
Interviewee
We have a process that is based on a lean product development concept, which is an agile process with well-
defined decision-making, and everything is, of course, based on the company strategy. What are our plans?
What is our mission? Then there are what we call program areas, which are basically business segments. Where
are the customers? What are their needs, and how can we work to meet them? What are the potential profit
margins for us in this? Because this works, you must have a vision, or a target set in time, for the business
segments three to five years from now. To be able to control this in a good way, but then you have a portfolio of
long-term projects and activities, a portfolio of more short-term activities, and of course, some kind of
assignments which could be customer support or our manufacturing operations and support. We also need to
improve. It is working internally to improve our internal margins. That is always important, especially now, when
you are in 2023 and everything is about sustainability, reducing emissions, and minimizing material. That's what
circularity is all about. So, this is a mixed plate, but that's a good thing because it involves a lot more than just
what we say R&D technology development because there's a lot more that's connected to this, it's sourcing,
procurement, and operation. As I previously stated. And because it is also about QHSE and quality aspects, we
have a setup where most of these functions are met. Basically, you could look at the long-term plan once a
month in this business segment and see what activities are ongoing, if there are any issues or problems, and if
- 29 -
there is any new input coming in from clients, for example, you make some changes, reprioritize, or even say,
hey, why are we doing this project here? Let's put it on hold and see if it's worthwhile. This is a huge help. We
need to analyze it rather than just continue because we started because things can change.
Q:
At this point, could you please elaborate on the main challenges of implementing this process?
Interviewee
The main challenge, in my opinion, is that you place too much emphasis on short-term goals. So the risk to me is
that we miss out on the long-term part, which is very relevant for the Company 5 to 10 years ahead, so that is
the main risk in this, and to have the balance, and that is always the discussions you come back to how to
prioritize short term versus long term, and not least and also when you commit to like Ph.D. project together
with universities, it's a very long term commitment, so this is what I would say. One of the difficulties in this. But
keep in mind that our company is located in the middle of Sweden and we deliver 98% of our products outside
of Sweden, and in a world that is becoming increasingly faster, we need to expand our networking and
connections. So, in open innovation, getting our name out there in the world and finding new collaboration
partners to be able to manage that is also a major challenge, in my opinion. Branding our name, but also having
the resources to evaluate and work with these things because it is not only in Sweden and the Nordics, but
throughout Europe. Today, it can be found in every country.
Q:
How does your company protect intellectual property, especially with such lengthy projects?
Interviewee
In every type of agreements, we have never mind if it's towards the universities or if it's together with our
partners and clients. We always have paragraphs regarding the IP and we consider of course our core IP very
important to protect like this with the catalytic coating and also a lot of the methods we have developed over
the years for machining and welding. There's a lot of more of kind soft IP, which is there's no patents, but it's
known how the procedures and internal routines which are core IP from our perspective.
Q:
Did you have any experience where your collaboration or cooperation with any partner did not go as you
expected or something that you would say could have been better?
Interviewee
They'll probably several of these, but the majority I think goes well, there are examples when it hasn't worked
out and one of the learnings which we have applied more now is that you need to have a kind of a control
function with a percentage from both parties that are involved like let's call it like kind of a steering group. You
let the engineers from each company work together as more of a technical team. But to monitor the progress
and that there is a win-win still for both parties you need that kind of a control function which usually are then
business managers that's it's working so that would say take away from some not you could say activities which
have they been running too long, which we should not have the that run for first long time as we did then. I
don't have an example which I will give more specifics but generally speaking there is I would say three or four
over the last 10 years which you could classify like we should have had a closer follow up on both parties
involved.
Q:
So this is more like a miscommunication between both parties, or it was like there was no control when to stop
or how to make decision or it was a mistrust?
Interviewee
It was not a mistrust; I would say - as we were saying before- it was too much engineering and too little financial
- 30 -
follow up or understanding on are we still on track? Sometimes I think our company should have taken a bigger
role in this because our clients, of course, trust us. So, I think we could have done more from this side.
Q:
Talking about trust, if you go for a partnership now, let's say outside, what do you look for other than trust,
obviously covering your own business interests, and everything. What are the other essential factors you look
for in a partner before forming a collaboration partnership?
Interviewee
It must be a clear business opportunity with the client. That means they should have a trustworthy plan that
they have a market they are looking for and then they will be able to serve that market because we invest
together with the client, it's a big investment, and with any investment in future manufacturing because we try
to have cost coverage when we work together with the clients during all the phases, but still, for us, it's a lot of
investments being done in the house frequently and then to see if there is a viable business plan then there are
a slew of policy questions that must be addressed. They should not be in any unusual working conditions,
policies, or procedures, and we should understand how they work and how they interact with their suppliers.
There are many checkpoints today because we are a company on the stock market.
This ESG points of view with potential clients and Partners.
Q:
When we talk about policies on the governmental side also, do you see that there are some kind of regulations
which create some kind of issues when you go for the collaboration or should have been improved?
Interviewee
It's a little of what I was talking about when it comes to the ESG parts, of course. But if we talk about the other
type of regulations, they may also be an opportunity if or some, for example, environmental things where our
products and our partners products could maybe help meeting these requirements or legislations and that could
be a business opportunity.
Q:
How does your company, particularly your R&D, strike a balance between open innovation and normal daily
activities, and what priorities do you assign to that one?
Interviewee
I would say if you looked on the continuous business of course then the first one is what is driving more because
you need to have the follow up how that's your products work, and you do incremental improvements. But if
you want to add new products or you're looking for maybe adding a new segment to sell your products and then
definitely you need to have more focus on the open innovation or thinking more long-term part and so that's it's
also I mean back to what I was saying earlier, this is where you always need to decide a little. What are the
opportunities and how do you control and prioritize your resources and I would say that at we are somewhere
you cause will say working in a kind of a 50-50 approach. Some years that may mean that it's 70% of the
resources are more focused on the little more let's call it more towards open innovation and another year it
could be like 30% the little depending on how your portfolio looks like and where you are in the
commercialization of some new areas. But if you look at the longer term, I would say that I think we would like
to be somewhere in the 50%-50% range, that's where we are today and where innovation is an important part
inside the company.
Q:
You mentioned collaboration with universities at the start of the interview. If you could give us another example
of another type of collaboration, but this time with a company, when you started working with them from the
- 31 -
beginning phase until the end, and how you measured success? Is it a success if the project is completed and the
order is filled? Do you have any examples of this?
Interviewee
I think our water treatment business is maybe the best example on this type of collaboration, that's because in
2013 when we restarted that business segment basically by hiring one person and then going back to what we
were looking for 10 years earlier in another world, so the same, but then that was basically in five years’ time we
could measure the success in turnover and revenue and not least profit, and I think that's the ultimate for a
commercial business, the success is measured somewhere in this financial terms to one port. But then also I
would say it's also important to say that you can also measure it that you have created an organization with
competences and well-set processes which you then can utilize as a kind of a template to some extent for
establishing in next new business or new segment. So, and I would say that's where we are in a phase. Now
when we are taking our learnings from our 50 years and focusing it on the green hydrogen space. Still, we are
not there. We can say that we make profit, but we can definitely see that we have a passed the first gate or
second gate in this kind of a process that we have the contacts, we have a lot of ongoing projects and activities
with universities, with customers, internal development, and just waiting to start signing the first big commercial
orders and when we are delivered them, we can take off that we have reached this again, I would say it's a
couple of years more to go before that, but we're on the path.
Q:
So you believe that the success of the innovation in one segment can be used as a lesson in another segment?
And what is your recommendation for having this type? What, for example, are the Success Factors for
implementing open innovation in SMEs like yours?
Interviewee
You need to have an internal team, which is very focused, and work dedicated together in this and that you have
complementary competences in that team or very close to that team. So, you are talking about an SME, which is
still basically, I mean our profit comes from manufacturing, it's important to say you need to make this
manufacturable product and deliver what your clients expect at least. All the time you also need to challenge a
little both internally and maybe your client too.
Q:
You talked about the complementary competencies in the team. What are the complementary competencies
you think are important to have a good collaboration?
Interviewee
You could say it's a little of what I also said earlier in this discussion that the core for us is manufacturing
competence. They know how to produce our products with coating etc. That's the basic part. But then you need
to understand how do you make an efficient sourcing of your own materials etc.? Are you set this up in a good
way?
You need to understand the end customer point of view so that you design and simplify as much as possible.
You could say for the end client when it comes to the product design etc.
And you need also then to have a well-defined set up for how you track your quality in this also so
it's where I would say you have some complementary part around if you say engineering and
manufacturing, is our core.
Q:
When we talk about established companies, such as yours, who have been in this industry for a long time. Each
company has developed some capabilities that we refer to as dynamic capabilities. Which is more akin to
becoming a company culture. How you work, collaborate, communicate, and so forth. What are the dynamic
- 32 -
capabilities or culture of your company that you believe is really helping you to move further in technology
innovation and competing with your competitors?
Interviewee
I would say from 2016 and forward we tried to simplify this with the values quite a lot I would say and focus on
statements which all of the personnel should be able to identify themselves in. It's like 2 words which you
actually have printed on our business course or to synthesis and one is right from us to you. or the right from me
to you. Very simple and focusing on quality and that we deliver on our promises as one example. And this is for
the full company. But of course, this is very much used in technology and innovation portals. We have another
one but, in the safety, which is safe to start with me, that's a very simple one, but then there are also some
values or what you call it in English “grounds values” and we have professionality and that's one of them also
one part of this is about the competences, etc. That you bring into to your clients and that's I would say
something very important. and while I was saying that sometimes you also need to challenge your client a little.
Do they really know what they want?
And we should have the competence to do explain why we are asking that question.
So, to say that's kind of a value that you have a competence and of course you'll need to have big ears. So, you
listen to your clients, you're not just have a big mouth that's not good for the long term. Yeah, but that's an
example of how we really work with the values. And of course, these are coming back in information that our
CEO is so keeping for their employees every month and we have them in the appraisal talks etc. It's really like a
common theme and try to really understand on an individual level what does this mean for me? How can I
contribute? How can I live with these values?
Q:
When you go with your clients for some process, it's never have happened that two different companies they
have the same culture, they have the same value or the same standard, For example, the definition of quality is
different, or how to communicate it's different, if you have such kind of situation, how do you handle it? The
first thing and then the related question also is that what are the minimum your demand in different
competencies that you think because you are a working in a Swedish culture which is quite different and unique
as compared to the rest of the world? so where are your dead limits? You cannot go beyond that.
Interviewee
It's all around us I mean this is once again where you need to have this the bigger ears and listen and understand
the culture also because that's mostly for when it comes to decision making. I mean, if we want to make some
input like you'll see on challenging little, I mean then of course we need to do that maybe in a different way than
we would do in Sweden where we ask meet in a room and just bounce ideas basically never mind if there's
manager or not round. let's call it. You need to do some stakeholder analysis for this, and sometimes it's tricky
for sure and I think all of us has stepped on some toes, sometimes in this but that's you can usually manage to
resolve that also, but it can be a challenge and this for sure.
I think it’s strength more Swedish way when it comes to open innovation.
Q
And that we have to consider that Sweden, that probably is the second or third in the world when we talk about
innovation in general because all that themes, all that support all that type of culture?
Interviewee
Yeah, you are allowed to challenge your peers here in Sweden, that's a strength.
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Company C-2
Fri, Apr 14, 2023 3:59PM • 1:13:20
Question: Can you please give us a brief overview of your role as r&d specialists and how it has
evolved since you for a first joined the company and then you return back now, if it's please give us
a little bit description about that.
Answer: Yes, I can surely do that. So I joined the first time in 2004. Prior to that, I was I was working in
Germany as a scientist at Hamburg University. So I came from that was my postdoc. I was there for three
years before I after after I defended my PhD thesis. So but 2004 is where but my journey with this company
started. I started with the role in the beginning was development engineer. And then after a year or so, or
maybe two, I don't remember I am. I was promoted to specialist so I work until 2011. Yes. Still in that
specialist role, but then I quit. I decided to do something else. So I went to I went to work for the University
as a associate professor for a while. And then I was I got tired of that. So I started working as a as an
elementary school, elementary school principal. That wasn't my cup of tea. In 2018, I started as technology
manager, “V”, but I grew tired of that as well. So, in the beginning 2022 I came back to Company “P” after an
absence of a little bit more than 10 years, I came back to the same role as specialist. Although the I would say
that the r&d, the r&d activities at “P” evolved a lot during the whole comapny had evolved a lot during those
10 years I was away. So the ownership structure had changed. So now, now time has gone as an independent,
independent company. With stocks on the stock on stock exchange, you can you can buy a piece of Primus
gun if you like. When I worked at the last time it was part of the action rebel group. That has changed the
whole load the whole management team and changed more or less was once one guy was still there's other
catalysts. Otherwise, everybody else had changed. He was some by the way in the new roles, that the change
to the r&d team has grown a lot. I see and I also see that r&d team is now working actually when scientifically
interesting question and more as a more advanced technology than the last time I worked you. It was that
was one of the reasons I quit. It was kind of boring. I mean, a few of the things I did was just to just to put
numbers in Excel sheets and report them, which I don't think is I mean, it doesn't give me anything to do that.
It's boring. I want to do more, more advanced stuff, which I do now. I don't know if that answered your
question or
Question: How the things have changed in this company since your last tenure here especially
talking about the R&D, the key for the company when we're talking about innovations in general.
How you think the company approach to innovation evolved over the years since you've been there
until now?
Answer: That's a tricky question. Maybe I should also I should probably back up a little bit during to look at
my first my first seven years between 2004 and 2011 because a lot of stuff changed during that period. Of
course it was seven years. When I joined the first time it wasn't boring, it was pretty innovative, advanced
environment. I think I was the first one who was full time employed with a PhD degree at the company ever.
So that's something that changed. Now there are a whole bunch of us. I think we joined joint research projects
with the university with a pretty advanced level we call supervised PhD students. We really had advanced
scientific work during that time, which kind of died off towards the end. Things went up and down during
those seven years. I mean, John Gustafson, he was a PhD student of mine. Oh, wow. Okay. He made his PhD at
KTH during those seven years. I was co supervising him. That is just as an example. So when you say
innovation, we need to define what we mean with that word because it doesn't really have a straightforward
definition. We shall define, like this is innovation, this is not. I trace it back to the technology development. If
you look at it from that point of view,… you also have a business point of view when you talk about innovation,
which is not my cup of tea. I don't care about business. I mean, it's not what I work with. So, technology
development wise, I think, when I joined again, we're in a stronger position than we ever were. We have a
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freedom to operate inside the scientific field. We have but we still have a focus. We have a pretty clear goal.
To me, it's very clear where the company is going. Because I think this is very important. If you want to foster
an innovative area or culture within any organization, it needs to be clear where the organization is handling
and this is a management and leadership problem right. You need to set the direction you have to be the
captain of the ship. Somebody has to be. But last time I worked at this was not very clear. Where are we
going? Our growing business okay. What does that mean? And it wasn't really clear we need to do this or we
need to do that.
Question: So we think that the vision is much clearer now.
Answer: I think to me, I don't know if everybody agrees with me but I think so. Because during the previous
ownership times ,when a multinational company owned our company, the leadership was very scattered.
We had the site manager or CEO of our company but he used to take his orders from the parent company
and, for instance, what kind of coffee we're supposed to drink was decided in another country where the
headquarter was located. And I found it back then pretty hard to know what was part of our role in this big
actionable group. That was a huge multinational group, it's gotten into new shoes as well but back then it
was a very multinational business, aiming towards chemistry and paint production. But we were not
chemicals we doesn't produce paint, although we do produce a very important component in some factories
that produce chemicals. So whatever vision was actually built upon, it was very hard, I think for us to boil
that down into what were we supposed to do on this? Now when we are an independent company,
somebody's much closer to the business. That is our own board. They choose where we want to go. So the
goals now are very much closer and very much easier to interpret. And, for instance, it's very clear now. The
main strategic directions we're going to take is to work on development of hydrogen production, the
components mean you know that as well as I do that, and this is a very clear cut statement from the
management. This is the direction and that makes it much easier to be innovative because you know, your
ramifications. Now as long as I operate within this I'm pretty much free to explore my ideas. And that's
something I've seen going from this part of a multinational group into a medium sized independent
franchise.
Question: The common concept is that for the multi multinational companies, the open innovation is
much easier processes compared to the small industry. But what you have mentioned, it seems like
as a multinational company, it was difficult because there was no clear definition of the goal. Or
definition of the target at that time. But now, since you are a small group, you have more flexibility,
you have more freedom, and you have much more clear definition or defined path that you are
following. So this is completely opposite to what is a general concept and my question here is that you
mentioned that you have more freedom. Do you think it is something to do specifically with,
separating from this multinational company and having your own management or there are some
kind of other factors which are also involved in this progress?
Answer: And I'm pretty sure there are other factors. I think it's important that we have our own management
our own board that is close to what we're doing. What needs to be taken into account is in the actionable
group previously, if you go back in history, we were pretty old Bird. Everybody else was doing painter
chemicals. We were doing a component for factories. The business was very different. I think that was an
hindrance for us. But back to your the question you're actually asked. Yes, I think the I think it's easier when
we have our own board. Who knows the business close to the I mean, they know the company and they do
the market. They do business intelligence, the market service and everything for our needs, or what is good
for our specific group not what is good for this whole company that nobody knows what it's doing. But with
that said, I think there are other factors like the competence in the management. I mean, every situation is
unique and it's very hard to find this. This is a success factor. If you could pinpoint those everybody would
be successful, right? Because that would be easy. But I think the competence and the devotion of management
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is really important. I think we have a management team now that has a much higher competence level and
I'm talking about the local managers here at site. And then compared to last time education level is higher,
much higher. I don't think we have now maybe one in the management Group or two without academic
degrees today. Back then we had one people with academic degree. It has shifted and this is an important
factor and then you have all these things about disaster trickle down into what kind of competence to your
have, also on lower levels in the higher hierarchy. As I said, when I joined the first time I was the only one
with a PhD degree in the whole company. Now we are I think maybe six, something like that. So that's also a
difference, which I think is important. And now we're talking it's a little bit fuss, that's the thing to say. But
everybody talks about company culture. And it's very hard to grasp but doesn't mean it's but it's still there.
It's something in the air. It's like it's cool with technology if you have an atmosphere that technology is cool,
that development is cooled. Then you will have this development. If somebody says we don't really need this
development, we're fine the way we are. Nothing will happen.
Question: Could you please just give us elaborate more about what competence is important for the
innovation in general?
Answer: I think it's connected to just culture thing. If you have I mean you guys are educated you. You have
read a lot of books and you probably also made this journey than by reading by studying you open your mind
a little bit. You start understanding how little you understand. That's one thing and this is a very important
thing. You study so much that you understand that you know shit which is very frustrating the first time you
discover it, but later when you grow older like me, you start to understand that everybody knows this, that
nobody understands anything and it's fine not to understand. And that's what drives you later on. You're not
understanding. But before you reach that level of confidence and knowledge. You tend to think that you
understand a lot of things that you don't and that could lead you into false perception that your process is
perfect. Now on talking of course on a general group level. Now there are plenty of individuals that have no
formal education but understands this perfectly and vice versa. But on the group level, I think this is accurate
to say. Basically, I think this educational level or competence level reflects on the choices you make about
which direction to take and it influences the atmosphere like I talked about its culture, whatever it means,
but it's error of coolness. Developing things , that's my personal thoughts.
Question: Your previous owner multinational group was not basically a Swedish group. Do you think
that was also one of the reasons that played a role in slowing down of this process and now since it is
more local management which has a different style of leadership? Because you also mentioned that
leadership has to play a very critical role here. Do you think that that also affects or had an effect?
Answer: Yes, I do. And I think you anticipated that I was going to answer that the way you post your question.
So I was also, as I said, initially, I was working in Germany for three years. Yes. And obviously into German
culture, which is very much like Austrian, in that you have a much more rigid, the hierarchy is much clearer.
In Germany, you don't contradict your boss. Yes, he can say that two plus two is five. And then you say, Okay,
it's five. You know, it's four, but you say, Okay, it's five, and then you've tried to work with two plus two
equals five and nothing will work but it's not your problem. He said so. Right. Yes, that's good. That will never
work in Sweden. If your boss is wrong, you tell him and that's fine to tell him or her. It's fine to tell your boss
that what you just said is false. It's not in Germany. What they noticed, which I think is a Dutch culture, which
came from this accent, and all these decisions, were taken higher and higher and higher up. So at that point,
this was more this is a company group culture, not necessarily a nationalistic national culture, but your hand
this idea that the best decisions are taken as high up in the pyramid as possible. So the king is going to decide
what underwear you put on this morning. While I think this is completely wrong, you should decide what
underwear you put on the kink and decide that you should wear underwear because it's disgusting not. But
what you choose is up to you. Yeah. And this is something I saw during this period, and which was part of the
reason I left because I felt if you felt like smothered, there is no room for me to navigate here because, hey,
- 36 -
they tell me to use this cup. So, yes, and I believe certain that for innovation to take place for development to
take place. You need to give people some freedom to operate. You need to give them the space to but if you
like it was back then, if you tell people that in this company, we do all our mathematical calculations in
Microsoft Excel. Okay, you killed all science, because it's impossible to use Microsoft Excel for anything else
than what an economy people are using it for. Then, but if you give them to the freedom, if you have this
amount of money to buy the software you need, then you can start doing advanced simulations you can
simulate, you can make a simulation of the whole plant and look at those that things so yeah, I think you need
that freedom. But on the other hand, you can't give people too much freedom because then you have chaos.
So it's a balance you need to manage.

Question: How you engage with external partners for R&D? What kind of cooperation with external
partners do you have and how you manage it?
Answer: I have only been back for a year so haven't seen all the facets on how that's done today yet. Although
we will be involved right in the process of hiring a PhD student together with the University of your meal. So
here we have a formal agreement with the University that we are going to hire PhD student. They are going
to supervise so we have a research program we're going to follow together. We have funding from external
sources to do this, and we have been part in forming that project we formed a project together with the
researchers from Umeå. So we're perfectly aligned. The spark, let's say the first step in this relationship was
taking by the by the professor in Umeå, who approached our R&D Manager. They met somewhere I don't
know started talking and just kind of came out from there. But the initiative this time was taken from the
university this is just an example this is going on right now. And right now, we're trying to clean this up a
little bit how we operate together with universities. And when we're talking about research collaborations
now let's focus on that. Let's go back and see I have some history. I have a few different experiences from
this. I have some very successful things. I can go on for instance, we're what we did a good thesis on chloride
electrolysis who was then hired a little bit later after his thesis defense and he stayed there as a very
important employee. That project was also that was a joint project between us and another company that
were running the chloride plants and us as the electron manufacturing under KTH, in that case in Stockholm
This was also a very joint project where everybody was involved and we really work together. Then we have
some other projects where universities approached us that there is a problem today and how research is
funded. Most university they need an industrial partner to get any money. So sometimes you're just alibi.
You're just you can risk being alibi, I should say, the industry that has us that is a stakeholder in this project
and you agreed to help them with some measurements and send them some material whatever so you're,
you take a very small part and you're not really interested. But you do it just to support and to get a new
friend. So I think that we're a little bit plagued by the funding system or research in Sweden and this is not
unique. This is happening all over the world, that politicians thinks that science should be should be useful
and important. So you need an industry that's interesting in what you're doing. So you have to form these
joint projects. And I mean, this can be good in sometimes but I think for science, if you talk to academic
science, I think this is this is actually quite devastating. I have a friend who once said that if Albert Einstein
would have been working with our funding system, somebody would have forced him to optimize the steam
engine. And he's actually correct. We are optimizing the steam engine, which is fine for a steam engine
manufacturer to do. But I don't think that's what a university should. So that's, I think we have involved but
we're trying to get away from this projects together with universities where we're just industrial alibi. We
don't want to be there. We want to be proactive. We want to design maybe even that we could be the ones
proposing projects to the universities instead of the other way around. Or at least the best part is when we
do a jointly. So okay, because to do this research project, you need something that's important for the
company that can make us better at doing our business. I mean, that's what we're here for. But it also has to
be enough academically interesting for the universities to publish their papers and produce their thesis. You
need to find that common ground which you can do if you have a dialogue. We approved that a few times.
The other half of your question was, how do we work together with other R&D departments of other
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companies? Which I cannot really answer to right now, because I haven't ended up in that situation since I
came back yet. I had some discussions with scientists from customers, for instance. But that I can't really give
you at all.
Question: How you make decision about initiating the Research project and what are the factors that
influence this decision to invest into innovation process?
Answer: Those decisions are not really made by me on my level. I am merely a tool, but I have some insight
in how this is done. And of course I have some input I mean, if I recommend something people will listen. But
how it's done today is that first of all, you have a vision, you have a strategy for the company. So that's the
first thing anything we do in any technology development. And I stay with the term technology developments
and of innovation. I'm going to comment on why I make a distinction later. So to have a technology
development you want to, what you choose to do has to be within the scope of the strategy that the companies
take. That's the first thing I can have the best idea in the world on how to I don't know make a better diesel
engine. But that's not what we do. If I want to do that I can phone Mercedes and ask if they want to buy my
idea. No. I'm not gonna develop that here. It has to be it has to be there. And then the next thing if you have
several competing ideas or you have several let's put it the other way. Not ideas. Let's say you have different
problems that you need to solve. Very much problem oriented, how you have an issue. And usually that's
when the ideas come when you have an issue that you need to solve. They don't count they don't pop up from
nowhere. We have a problem with this. We have a problem with that. And we have a problem here. Both all
three of them are something we need to solve. We want to solve within the scope of where the company is
going, whereas strategists where it's where goals are. So what you would you do then, is the sense essentially
you make a kind of a cost benefit analysis. Which one will give us the most bang for the buck to spend our
resources on? It it's as simple as that, although it's not simple to do. So of course you take a risk. But right
now I'm working on such a project that came out of the problem, a really difficult problem and that this has
something to do with our internal way or how we work so what was done then is that many of us had seen
this problem. Many of us have been curious or annoyed by this problem. And it's definitely something in the
interest of the company to solve because if we solve this problem, everything will go smoother. So what
happened in this case was that this was a pretty big thing. So it's not something i fix in an afternoon. It's
something that will take maybe a year to accomplish. So inside the company then that's called the formal
project. You start a formal project, but before you do that, you make a project plan and it has to go to a
manager to a special Management Board for approval or dismissal. So I wrote the planner it's kind of an
application you're at I have seen this problem owner saw that this way. This is how I propose to do it. This is
what this is the raw resources I will need to solve it. You make the whole budget everything you need to do
lots of work. So you do most of the project planning already before you know if you're going to accomplish it
or not. If you're going to start it or not. So then this management board, then it's then it's up to them to see
what kind of problems do we have what kind of proposed projects do we have to solve the different
problems? What resources can we expand on this in total? And it's up to them to make a decision which
project should start in which should not. So, my project was chosen, I managed I was then allowed to engage
the people I needed into the project so they will work with me. And we're going now and we from there on
my hands are very, very much free. As long as they stay within the scope of the project we defined I can do
whatever I like.
Question: So in this case, it seems to be that you had all the necessary skills and resources that you
needed within your company. And you also mentioned that decision is taken by the higher
management if we go with a project and basically most of the time this decision by the higher
management is driven by the resources, especially the financial resources, right? Let's say if you don't
have the financial resources or any other kind of resources, do you also try to do some kind of out of
company some kind of scouting to see if you can find resources if you can utilize the resources from
- 38 -
external partner to solve this problem or kind of collaborate with someone outside because you don't
have enough resources inside.
Answer: Well, I haven't done it but I know that others do I mean depends on what kind of resources you're
talking about. If we don't have the money to spend on it, then of course it's tough. You could do you could if
it's a university interest if an academically interesting problem you can always go with the funding University
collaboration stuff that route. But you usually don't use that route for very, very urgent problems because
it's too slow route. That's more that's for deeper knowledge issues. If you have the money, but you don't have
the competence. You hire consultants. That's usually how you do it. I need somebody who can know who can
program a robot. We don't have anybody who can program robots. Okay hire a company who can program
robots and problem solved. I've not really usually ends up in a mess anyway. But no, but you get the idea.
That's why there are consultants
Question: A lot of educated people have also joined the company. Could you please also highlight how
diversity play role in innovation. Especially that we extended in different geographical area. How that
diversity plays a role in this.
Answer: Diversity can mean many things. I mean, we were already talking about different cultures in
different countries. And you certainly know about it, moving to Sweden and everything. So that's, that's one
thing to have colleagues with different nationalities. And it's a good thing. Because for instance, how do you
get to it? You can meet other cultures because hey, I'm supposed to behave when I go to Austria. Don't call
people by first name. So language skills others thing was good to have people employed who knows different
languages? I mean, if you don't you're handicapped. In Sweden, we tend to think as long as you know English
you survive anywhere in the world, and we're good at English. We're fine. Nothing could be more false. Yeah,
we're fine in the UK in the US. And actually in Holland as well. They're very good. So but this, these are the
kinds of simple issues. When it comes to nationality, then you have diversity in terms of gender. In my
opinion, in my experience, I've worked in workplaces where we're almost only men. I worked in workplaces
where I was the only man who everybody else was a woman. And none of them are good. None of them are
good. We men tend to be much more civilized when there are women around. As a matter of fact, it's the
same thing the other way around. Yeah. So you also have diversity in terms of ages. I mean, yeah, it's good to
have a mixture between I shouldn't say old guys, but like me in the 50s up to the 60s and down to the 20s.
It's good to have that mixture, because you have different levels of experience. It's important. So diversity, I
see on the positive things. No buzzwords Okay, no, I some people say so I never seen them. One thing that is
a little bit could be a little bit problematic. Is that too many people moving to Sweden tend to not learn
Swedish really. But actually, that's our own fault. When I moved to Germany, it wasn't their problem. If I
didn't understand them. It was my problem. We tend to switch to English The moment we realize that
somebody is not perfectly fluent in Swedish. yeah. And you can you can live your whole life is waiting without
learning a word in Swedish and you can cope. Although I think you will have a problem to really come into
the society. There is still a barrier when you don't know the language. But we are not a Swedes forcing you
through it. In German, I was forced to it. I had nothing. I had no choice.
Question: How about skills diversity. And that's the most important point because I think even if you
try the best you cannot have all kinds of skills, necessary skills in a company. And how do you cope
with that, especially in innovation when you are talking to have different hands on board, but that's
not possible always in house. So how do you manage that and how much it is important?
Answer: The easy answer is what I said before you hire consultants but that's not really honest to say, you
can do that. But that requires you to know what skill you're missing and where to find it. The tricky thing
about not having skills or knowledge is that you don't always know that you don't know what you're
supposed to know. So you need to have a certain level of skills or experience or knowledge to understand
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what kind of knowledge you're lacking to solve your problem. So there is a famous saying that this is what
we know that we know, this is what we know that we don't know and this is what we don't even know that
we don't know. If I can identify what kind of skill size scale I need to solve a certain problem that I have
defined. Then of course, you can find it. You can hire somebody you can pay somebody to do it. You can read
a book and learn it yourself or whatever. But the problem comes really, when you don't even know that
you're lacking that knowledge and you're trying to solve a problem with the knowledge you had, instead of
the one you don't have, which was much better. And I don't know how to cope with that. I think there's no
standard way to do it. No, and I think this is just something we need to live with. It's something everybody
has to live with it. But of course it will be. There's another side to it is that sometimes maybe the skill set is
available in the company, but you don't know it. The guy or girl who has the knowledge doesn't even know
that you have this problem. So internal communication is also an issue.
Question: Let's say you know the opportunities in market but you need to take advantage of it to make
it a business model or whatsoever. And in that case, for you to take advantage of this opportunity,
what kind of capabilities you think in a team are required. For example, one of them I can say is that
you need to have the decision making authority on the lower level. Because from my point of view,
the main thing for the innovation is that you need to make quick decisions and that quick decisions
you cannot make if all the decisions are taken on the higher level.
Answer: No, because you will end up in a bureaucratic mess and getting nowhere. Now you're touching
something interesting learned. Maybe you have the authority to make the decision, but you're too scared
yourself to do it. You don't have the guts to decide for yourself. I've seen this. Not in innovation, not
necessarily in any fancy innovation process, but just very simple decisions. Like where am I? Where am I
supposed to throw this when I don't need it anymore? And people need to go around and ask that instead of
just throw it out?. I think you're right. I can't elaborate more on that because what you need to see some
opportunity, but I want to turn it around. You also need to know when not to seize the opportunity. Maybe
it's not your cup of tea. You can't run after run after every ball there is and this is what I sent him in the
beginning of this interview when we're talking about how do you decide which projects to pursue. You'll
have also to decide what not to pursue, because otherwise to do a whole or the whole prioritization thing is
meaningless. I've been in so many meetings when we say we need to prioritize,we need to prioritize Okay,
let's prioritize everything one step up. Everything is one step more important than it was yesterday. What
has that helped you? Are you still having just as much to do is just that you're a little bit more stressed about
it. So sometimes you have to decide okay, this is a good idea. I'm sure this will be profit, profitable business.
This is excellent. But it's not for us. Let somebody else seize that opportunity because we are busy enough
for what we have here
Question: What other capabilities you think are important to make the innovation beneficial process
from technological point of view?
Answer: Actually, this is a very good question because he comes back to it actually means that I can answer
what I said I was gonna answer I said earlier, I'm going to talk more about why I call it technological
development, not innovation. And this ties back to exactly what I was thinking about saying the technological
development. It's just to solve some fancy technological question or scientific question. But for that to be
innovation, you need to make it into into use. That's where I see the difference between the technical
development and innovation. As innovation is something that drives the whole thing farther, that you have
to apply this technology, technology development into your, your market or your manufacturing process, or
whatever it is to make you as a company if we talk about the company, which we do to make your company
stronger. That's where I see where when development becomes an innovation. It needs to have a market
potential, so to say, and it has to utilize it. So that I think that answers your question, what more capabilities
do you need? You need certainly the capability to make the technological development, the scientific work
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behind the problem solving, but you also need to apply it you need to make it happen in reality. I can't
program the most fancy computer program code here maybe this does everything but I have no idea how to
install that in anybody else's computer then it's kind of useless. And I can make the strongest material ever
hear in my lab, but I can't. I have no idea how to put that into production. And then it's actually kind of useless
for the company to be technologically very cool, but it's useless for the company. So in answer to your
question, you need to make this happen in reality that that takes engineering skills to apply it to make it
happen. It takes management skills as you need to get the people working in the process to understand that
they need this change. Changing a process it's a science in its own. I just read the book on communication in
communication during changing processes in organizations. It's really fascinating. And everybody says yes,
that's cool. And then when they start realizing that Oh, I will have to change the way I work. They say no, no,
no, no, don't do that. And then you kind of need to work through this so that's something you need.
Communication skills, management skills, and you also need the business skills you need to find a customer
willing to pay for this change. Because otherwise there's nothing a business can do. So you do need a
marketing skills as well.
Question: How much is the role of the flexibility in your business model is critical in innovation and
collaboration?
Answer: I think we already touched upon this a little bit. If you're too rigid nothing will change. You have
built your whole business every process everything is molded into concrete and cannot change. So
that's pretty bad. If you're very rigid, then you will be like the old company Facit. When the word processors
came, I mean they were the best typewriters in the world, there was no business. That's if you're too fixed. If
you're if your business model is too rigid. It can also be too loose I think. Because then if it's too loose if you
don't have like we talked about in the very beginning. If you don't have a clear vision if you don't have a clear
goal, a clear direction. I think all this technology development innovations will turn into chaos. And you won't
get the team to work in the same direction. And this is really important also for innovation. You need to get
the team to go in the same direction. You can have different opinions in there. But you need to handle those
and make use of them. Because different opinions is not a bad thing. It's a good thing, but you need to handle
it with care. So if I think the flexibility or rigidity of your business model is really important. It has to be rigid
enough to give you directions you don't start scattering all directions. And like I said, when you talk about
seizing the opportunity that you should also know when to not seize still opportunities. And if your business
model is very loose, you will see several all opportunities and you will get nowhere because you won't finish
anything.
Question: How is important for the technology development, how we do the management there, and
this way and in terms of their cooperation, how the trust is very important also how we take that
because it's kind of secret of the company and all that one, how we can manage it.
Answer: I know that you have used the word and also in the call for this meeting talk about open innovation
that's not what our company is doing, we have very closed innovation. Although I don't know if I should talk,
if I should answer this question as the R&D specialist. I'm going to answer it as the visionary scientist. I can
give one example where I love the idea of open innovation and I think it can be extremely successful for
mankind. Have a very good example of how, what can happen if you let the creative forces loose and that's
Wikipedia. Wikipedia grew from a from a geek project into the biggest encyclopedia ever built, ever written
in the whole world during all history. It's extremely accurate. And this is done only, like somebody said by a
geek feeling the need to correct another geek. That it is really a success story beyond what anybody could
imagine 20 years ago, and this is done entirely in an open atmosphere by people who just like doing what
you're doing. It's only free time. I wrote a few articles there myself just because I like it. That's an example of
how successful and this is a type of open innovation. Although it's not technology. There is actually a little bit
technology development in there also because the code behind this also developed the same way. It's open
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source and everything is open source. So open source software in general is also one of these success stories
when it comes to open innovation. I think this is something I as a scientist I love for mankind is could really
be a big leap forward. What stands in the way? The Market and personal greed dancing away. Is that a bad
thing or a good thing? I don't know. Capitalism of market the free market is given mankind a lot of good, but
they're also a negative. there's a big negative. We are not an open. We're very close. We're very secret. We
want to protect either by keeping stuff secret or by patenting. I mean, we're doing what all traditional
companies are doing.. So I tried to stay out to the patenting issue. I hate patents. I've never even written a
patent on it. If somebody wants to write a patent into my invention Go ahead. For me It's a kind of a good
idea and when it came in a few 100 years ago. Basic idea that I gave the world my knowledge in exchange for
having exclusive rights for a number of years and using it I mean that's the basic idea, which is a good idea.
Unfortunately, that's does not really work like that, since the financial people took over so I don't really know
how to answer I love the idea of open innovation. I think it can do mankind a lot of good. We have seen a few
very good examples, which I think Wikipedia is the most stunning. And, but it actually it is a paradigm shift
from the traditional corporate view of owning your rights to whatever
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Company D
Q: Tell us about the history of your progress journey
Answer: Started in the 60s, we were a company producing matches. We had a lot of waste during that time. When
you produce the matches, which they just throw away, burned. In that time they were using core plugs for the
paper industry in solid wood. Which is problem. When it's dry it cracks, it's Collapse. So then they come up with
the idea, I don't remember which of the paper mills, but there was one paper company that come to us and asked.
Can you help us with this? And then we started to produce the compression molded 4 plugs. In the 60s, so
it's Quite easy drive wood chips. Glue wax hardener. Heat and pressure. So the mold decides which size including
Diameter and shape. Uh, 70s we Started to produce blocks, palette blocks, same process. There's different kind
of molds, more or less. And later on we have produced chip board for Internal Doors. And which we produce here
and sell to the door Producer they build the frame and one thin chip on each side and some filling in the middle.
This was closed, this part of the company because there was high competition from, I would say Asia for these
HDF or MDF production. Even 90s we were part of a bigger company, they wanted to have this Uh chip board for
door production. But in 1997, they decided to sell this factory. So the plant manager, he did a management buyout
and bought the company 97. And started so he's the new owner. Hey, in the beginning of 2000 we started to move
pilot production to another country. Because there was a lack of raw material here in Sweden. It was very popular
to produce pellets for heating houses at that time. So we had like 7 or 8 factories in 100 kilometer radius, so it was
almost impossible. And then IKEA has also a big factory for chipboards in Hultsfred, only 80 kilometers from here
from here. So it was really difficult to find material. So that's why we moved abroad. And since 2012, we have all
production there and nothing here in Sweden. So now we have everything there. But now we see the history
repeats a little bit with the raw material. Duo to I say mainly due to the war in Ukraine and If we look back some
years, it was approximately 40% of the wood was imported from Belarus, and today they have nothing, so I see.
Our suppliers, they don't have material enough. At least not on a good price level, so they produce less, which
means it's less waste for us. So that's where we are today. And today we are like 60. Five persons employed abroad
and four here in Sweden.
Q: Now Despite that you don't have R&D, how you implement innovation and how you coup with the market
change?
Answer: I would say, Well, we are right now in the middle of a project I would say more or less like innovation
company for this furniture industry. I think this could be, if this is successful, it could be a door opener for a new
industry for us. For the furniture industry. But I think we need, to open that door, we need some help from external
company.
Q: In which perspective?
Answer: I mean, they should know the furniture industry, they shall have all the contacts because I have now an
inquiry from the Lithuanian producer. So I think that's because if I have one reference, then it's much easier for
us to do it or ourselves to do it. It's always good to have a reference customer.
Q: if we consider it as a a good example for success innovation, could you please elaborate how you perceive
that one, did you do it by yourself, did your cooperate with another company?
Answer: Actually it started they came. And because these companies really Innovators they have made a lot of
different patents which they have sold to IKEA, for example, and now they have been thinking about how to do
this because I think they have done it before, but then it's not exactly the same . So, now they come with this
because they see now it's a Little bit lack of Wood in the market and the big argument is the sustainability and
because if you use solid wood for these conical leg you get a lot of waste
Q: since you are looking for this company or working with this company to introduce yourself into a new market.
How is your process in collaboration with this company? Can you please elaborate more about the how, what
kind of collaboration you have or more details?
Answer: We didn't decide that really yet. We have some different options, so we didn't make the final agreement
how to do it. We have some 3-4 different options. How to do it? It it could be that? We can use their machinery
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and on the license basis it could be that we are just producing this link to them and they sell the product. It could
be that we do everything but pay them a royalty, so we have some different options, but we didn't really decide
it yet how to do it.
Q: When you are talking about different options, so is it, uh, already you have some thoughts about what option
would suit you better according to your professional relationship and experience with this company. What are
basically the factors that you are considering when you if you plan to move further?
Answer: As I mentioned before, I think we are Little bit forced to Include them in the customer contact to start
with. So I I think That will be the case and idea from both of us is more or less because we will produce this in our
machinery with our material then we will have a machine putting on the laminate. It will go into an machine, glue
it and then it's finished and the idea is to do everything in our factory but this machine they have invented, that's
also only a prototype, so they need to build that. But they have already the patent for it. So It's only to Convince
the first customer it's really as good as it is.
Q: Have you been involved in such kind of or any other collaboration with any external company in the past as
well for any of your product?
Answer: we had the cooperation with the German company in the past. But that was for core plugs. But that
didn't end very well. So that's why we are a little bit I would not say afraid, but a little bit carful. So, we know it's
the correct persons behind the company before we do any bigger involvement.
Q: What was that experience, what happened, what went not according to your wishes?
Answer: It's it, it ended. It ended up that the other company wanted to take the Market for themselves. They
they wanted to kick us out and Take the market themselves. That's how they ended.
Q: Was it something that started with your agreement or contract with them that was not covering you properly
or was it something different? Was your contract not good enough to cover you as a or your business?
Answer: I think it ended up that. As as I see they they thought that we had too much of the cake, so to say they
think we earned more than they did. That's what they. So I can I can tell you it ended up in many €100,000 in
lawyer fees. And it ended in the court.
Q: what are the main challenge, if you need to implement the innovation or going with their new projects
things?
Answer: I think Raw material is the problem. But we are really working with that at the moment to to because
today we buy more or less only Wood shavings. But we are looking deeply into how to Use waste material as Old
furniture, pallets, whatever. In wood that we can crush into smaller Pieces and sort out if there are metals and
Whatever that is, and but we see there is a little bit Different regulations in Poland and it is in Sweden because in
Sweden it's quite easy to do this because we are Many, many years ahead of them in in Poland in this Because
they don't call it recycle, they call it just waste and waste. So it's it's that's the problem and and they are not.
Because if I see her in Sweden, we OK, we recycle. Would this place plastic in this place? Glass in this place, metal
in this place in Poland it's All in one place.
Q: right now the the factory and 90%, I would say the employee in Poland and you are the owner is sweet to
implement it. The innovation you need to work also with the staff in in the Poland how the culture thinks be
barrier for for that if you'd say.
Answer: it's difficult because to start with, it's difficult. Because in Poland the boss is the boss. In Sweden you are
more on the same. In Poland, it's more like they take off the hat and look in the floor when you come it's really
but we have really tried to Explain to them that we need all input from (them) because they have big knowledge.
So it's just to we actually we started a group some weeks ago that's what we call Innovation group. You know six,
7% thinking about how to Best new things (improve).We have for example this. Today we see we have limit for 2
1/2 degree angle. Because it's very hard to get the correct density in this thinner part. So but now they had some
idea because we have an inquiry for five degrees angle, then they had some idea how to Maybe fill half the mold
first push and then second-half and so we do it in two steps instead of 1, so it's a little bit innovating Our process.
We need to Maybe take out blocks, which is really bad paid per per kilo and put in some new products with. But
we can have Higher revenue per kilo or per ton. Because their pellets use a lot of material in that case, so that
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profit is get down. Take out 50% of the pallet blocks and put in 25% of something else with the double revenue it
will be. And we will use less material.
Q: Going back to your last collaboration with the German company, so I believe that the German company was
probably much bigger than polima. Other than this trust factor, which finally was the reason for this, cutting
down the agreement or business with them, did you have any other issues during the collaboration with this
company, for example, communication gap, cultural difference or I would say even more like the company was
because it was a big company, they had more difficulty being more innovative or flexible as compared to you,
something like that.
Answer: Yeah, we had some problems during that time. But I would say it was It was more personal or individual
problems from the top manager there.
Q: We know that for the more established company, it is difficult as they have already established systems or
processes. It is difficult for them to adapt or being more flexible as compared to a company like yours which is
looking for always moving ahead and they are more flexible to Change the process to go along with the change.
So this is normally an issue which happens when the two companies are coming together and they are at
different levels in the flexibility and it's difficult for them to collaborate efficiently and effectively.
Answer: Yep, definitely, definitely. And I think also a little bit it's At least this German company was more like Sell
to the customer, what they can produce and not to produce what the customer needs. And we want to do it the
opposite. OK, what do you want? Can we do it? OK, we can. Then we sell it.
Q: looking into your future plan like you are trying to all now work with another company. What would you do
better this time, based on your past experience or what would you like to have some kind of support from
outside from, let's say governmental side or anywhere and that you think would make your collaboration in
future a better success based on your experience?
Answer: I think it's really related to the well-being between individuals. So you see it on the same way. Because
as you said, this was a very big company. They see it completely. It's more like a corporate business, they see it.
Completely different than we were just a small part of it, and for us it was the main thing. So I think it's maybe. I.
Maybe we should have done the lesson a little bit better last time. Also, before we enter that, but I think we
learned the lesson and we will not do it the same way without investigating a little bit more next time.
Q: Now you will try the different innovation probably. Uh, different trial projects, chemicals, process. and could
be failed. Didn't success. What the lessons you learned from that, that process or that experience that you try
to do innovation for something for material changing the raw material, probably the chemicals, but they didn't
work? If it's can occur, elaborate for that one.
Answer: Well, I I think it's it shall not be seen as a failure because I think it's more like uh. Or to say if it's more like
to see it as a OK Now we try days. It didn't work. OK then we move forward to the next one.
Q: How you avoid that problem that happened for that the first one or just try and error?
Answer: Yeah, but that was a little bit different that was. More related to that company, I think it was not related
to products. but I think now if we OK, we try New material and if we don't test it, we will not know. If we test it
and see this is not working OK, maybe we can change some parameters and try it again I I think because we had
an old Manager in Poland who always said not possible to everything and and it doesn't matter, but I see now we
do many, many things today that was not possible five years ago, but so I I think sometimes you need to have this
trial and error and I would say this. What we are just about to start now should have been done many years ago,
but it's always easy to say afterwards, but it should have been done many years ago.
Q: Do you think that your past experience uh about collaboration somehow put your company into the backstep
and kind of had a negative impact. I mean if that would not have happened, maybe you could have been done
better than
Answer: Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. No, no, no. I think it was in the end, it was really good for us. So well, it's was
instead, because now we are on our own in our own machinery and we run 100% by ourselves. So no, no impact
from someone.
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Q: If for example, you have two options for the collaboration, one is a much bigger company like a corporate
and the second one is an SME more like you. What would you prefer to collaborate with.
Answer: I wouldn't say that I would prefer i think it's really related to the persons involved in it. Because I'm sure
there could be really good corporations with bigger companies as well. Of course, it can be easier with the smaller
one that are on the same level as you are but I think both from the bigger one has also bigger muscles so so it can
be benefits from that point of view.
Q: What are the skills the company should have to go for the innovation process?
Answer: I think we had the capabilities or skills also 2-3 years ago, but but last two or three years has been really
crazy market situation and it's been only focus on production produce as much as possible. Those customers are
demanding more than we can produce. So. So I guess that has been the the limitation for us the last years.
Q: what are those capabilities that you think are really helping you or they are your strong point for this kind of
collaboration
Answer: Our specific skills is to Press in Round or shaped forms? That's this skill we have.
Q: Those are more like I understand as a technical skills, expertise, the technical or productive expertise on the
other side, what are capabilities on the management side?
Answer: Yeah, we have. We have much better communication skills within the company today than we have some
years ago for sure. We have replaced Old manager who was retired now with younger people and they are more
open to new thinking and new ideas and I think it's a little bit question about generation.
Q: you have already mentioned is also your the the culture, the Swedish culture, which is more like flat where
everyone has a more like option to speak up to come forward. Is this also helping you. I'm pretty sure with your
process as compared to your partner in Poland where it's just a boss is the boss and if the boss is not that people
of doing anything?
Answer: Yeah, yeah. But that's also different when you have little bit younger people coming in there. So I think it
will be easier and easier.
Q: Based on your experience, we would like to have some advice from you that what they should be looking for
or how they should protect themselves, their own business, what steps should be taken before they go for the
partnership.
Answer: It's a good question. I think in the end, there must be, In the cooperation, it must be a benefit for both
parts. That's the key. So both parts must get something out of this. And to give advice about this with innovation,
I think it's more or less to Not do it as we have done it in meaning We didn't do it for a long time. More work with
it all the time.
Q: now you don't have research and development and basically everything is based on new you try to develop
that one. Do you think that we will be fit on another company at the same way or no, it should be have that
kind of specific research and development process and stuff and team to build that.
Answer: I think it's not, maybe not needed for smaller companies to have a specific department for that, but it
can be in smaller companies. Some persons can have many different areas to work with, so I think in in, in that
case it's better to have more person working partly with that than only one person in doing it, I in this Parts it's
needed to have money. Different ideas and thinking differently, so not all of you think the same. So we think all
different directions and really try to Challenge the Organization and production process as it is today. I see often
it's very often when when there is a little bit of crisis, the best innovation comes up. It's been very easy last 10
years. OK, we buy wood chips from them. But maybe we could have done this ten years ago, but no one was really
thinking because it was running.
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Interview-Company E
Fri, Mar 29, 2023 • Total Time: 53:09
Question: Could you please give us a little bit of history about your initiative how you started,
why starting as a company?
Answer: Yes, I make a little history where I start to this world of environment and how we have arrived
to current value. I am 59 years old. I started when I was 25 years old with the first company that I did with
the others shareholders, that is a environmental analysis lab for analysis of wastewater and waste for
industry and companies that have a treatment systems. I started when I was 25 and later I sold my
company in 1999. Why I sold that lab was because it was boring after a lot of years doing the same, only
doing the analysis. I am more comfortable giving the solutions to the industry. I like to give the solutions
but not just giving the characteristics of the problem, take the problem and give the solutions. After 2003
that I definitively left the lab and left all of these world of analysis. I took one year of sabbatical leave. I
travelled around the world, studying different technologies of wastewater treatment, OK. And I have
studied a lot of different technologies, biological, physical chemicals. And there I realized the potential of
the electrochemical possibilities. So I started a new company to reduce waste of water. In this new
company only my wife and I are the shareholders, 100% family business. The company did not see a
significant business until 2010. But in in Spain the growing of this company was exponential after 2010.
Then in Spain we had a very big crisis, economical crisis. Bank crisis. And due to this crisis, I was forced
to sell one patent to one multinational and I worked with the same multinational company for some time.
However, I didn't like it to work for a big multinationals. They are very boring, very slow, bureaucratic in
everything like the decisions making. They take a long time. In taking decisions. I am a person that I like
to take my decisions quickly, have a very big research, develop new products and in this type of
companies, all of these things are very slow because nobody want to take risky decisions. And is very
difficult to develop a specific interest. For this reason, I left this company in 2018 and I start with my
current company. In this company we have 3 shareholders I am 60% of shares, 30% one family and 10%
shares are owned by one of my friend. All shareholders are very good and cooperative and that is
important. We are very comfortable, no one interface with the decision making power, they trust me and
we have very good cooperation between each other and that's it. But my experience in electrochemically
industry Started in 1998. I have more than 23 years in the chemical industry.
Question: And how you started?
Answer: In 1987, I started with electric calculation. And I saw that the possibilities of this technology.it
showed very good results in removing heavy metals, oil and grass nanoparticles and everything that
traditional physical chemical treatments can give a solution, the Electrocalculation give much more good
results and with less slight production than typical physical chemical treatment. But this is the first
technology that was established in Electro chemical technology but after years I combined electrical
calculation with biological systems. OK, but my interest was to have an integral solution in
electrochemical, not the Combination electrochemical and biological. I am microbiologist actually but I
prefer electrons over bacterias. Electrons give consistent results, bacterias does not, they are live
Organism and sometimes work, sometimes don't work. Sometime we don't know what happened. It's
much more control and give a continuous rusults and efficiencies with electrochemical than biological
systems. In 2007, I started my first cooperation with one company. I tried different types of electrodes
around the world and from different companies and finally, I decided to continue with this company who
was also supplier for my company because the test that I performed showed that they have the best
product with better service life, more efficiency. I have tried a lot of different coatings. But after this I
introduced some modifications with my product for these electrodes, OK. To have better results in
efficiency and better service life for industrial, wastewater applications. In 2018 after quitting, I started
again with the same electrochemical research and renewed my technology with another company in
2019. That was the start of my current organization. But we had CoVID in 2020. But in 2021, we started
to grow. In the begining very slow because with epidemic no body made contact with us and with no but
since then every year until this year, we generated revenue with yearly increase of 10 folds every year.
- 47 -
Like like a rocket. The increase of sales was because in the 2020, in the CoVID time, we did not shut
down rather we talked to all my workers, I said. it's better if we if we stay in lab and don't go to home. And
this time we spend in doing research. We don't have a sales, but we uh, take this time to do the research,
to have new products, new patents that in the future will give us a very good sales, OK, I and this was a
good a good decision to spend time in research. Because now one of these patents from 2020 we have
commercialized in one of the project in Italy, Gibraltar. We have 4 Project, 4 big projects in pharma
industry waste water treatment. But also now we are in contact in one another, which is a double in
capacity compared to Italy, Glaxo is a pharma industry with the same product, like Italy, but a double
capacity. Uh, we have other two patents more at the moment. We have present three patterns and we
have three more in reserve for the next year. During Covid time, we registered six patents in one year.
Now under the same name, We will have three new companies. The current company is like a watch
group and last week we have created a research company under the same umbrella. This will only handle
the research studies and patents. All the licenses and patents will be controlled by this research company
and it will provide the license and the others possibilities in Europe or around the world for example will
give a license you imagine to South Arabia or Germany or United States. And then we have two more
companies, one will handle business like waste water treatment and other will work with environmental
sustainability projects like CO2 capture and green hydrogen, to produce to a produce a very efficiency
and cost effective hydrogen.
Question: when we talk about open innovation, it is about collaboration with partners either
outside or within the company, by making a new business plan to bring your technology into the
market to the customer. When you are doing this research and development and you decided to
go for opening new companies within your parent company. What was the basic idea behind it?
Why you decided to go in this way?
Answer: Well the first thing always when we have a new idea. The new process in my head, and I don't
know if it will be working. It is a good idea or not always we have three steps. Three steps before doing
a company or patent or everything. This first step going of our study is to know more or less the efficiency
of my idea. Then the OpEx, the operation cost. And the last one is CapEx, more or less the how many
money cost, one type of industrial application. We do this first go no go study, that normally take a half a
year, maximum, not anymore. To take an idea and set with this study also go ahead and then we do an
industrial pilot project now for example. We have uh produced one system, the biodigesters for the sludge
of urban treatment plants. Waste water urban treatment plants? They have sludge a lot of it. To reduce
the amount of this sludge, this uh treatment plants introduce this sludge to the biodigesters. With the bio
digestion of this sledge, they produce methane. But this bio digestion process don't reuse all of these
organic matter but only the 50%. Why these? Because they have a lot of ammonia inside. And these
ammonia have animition to the bacterias inside the biodigester and we have studied how we can take
the water from inside the biodigester. Remove this ammonia below the universal denervation of
biomethanation of of the the organic matter. So in the the study go no-go, the results show that we can
achieve the required value and can have higher efficiency in the same biodigester. Between 60 to80%
more biomethane than normal. Now in the next month, we will start industrial pilot project in one big waste
water plant near our company and we will apply our technology. And then we will compare the results of
our new system with the one without the new system. Our system and uh corroborate increased efficiency
between 60 to 80% that we obtain in lab. If we can reproduce these results in industrial real case, then
uh, we start to selling this around the world, this technology. At the moment we have sign a 2 years
contract to issue license of this technology to use in urban wastewater plants with one German company.
If this company will be able to achieve the target sales, then these two years will be extended to 10 years
of license. At the moment this German company has 8000 clients. They sell motors and engines based
on methane fuel, they are interested in our technology because it is in line with their business and they
can increase their own sales of methane based engines. Our interest is not in expanding our company
and opening new branches around the world. We believe, that it is better to have good established
companies in each region and we just license them and use their network to expand our technology. I
think is much better.
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Question: One follow up question. So when you look for some collaborator or partners for
example this German company or any other company, what's the process, how you go into
agreement with this potential partner, what do you see basically?
Answer: First I must know the persons. Human human relations. I must have a very good feeling with
persons. If this don't work, nothing work. The technology is technology. The companies. They are
companies, but person is the 1st. And then for me it's basically If I have good feeling with the my possible
collaborators, I start to talk. Then I I think that always the the relations. Must to be win win. No, no parasitic
relations. If they are parasitic relations, uh, they finish.
Question: And then after after that relation Miguel, what you look about the company is it, how
strong, how big, how the trust?
Answer: No basically the type of company, the persons, uh, logical persons. Doesn't matter how big the
company is. But Agility. Sometimes they they are very small, but they can increase very quickly like us.
Question: what you want to say is that if you have a good feeling about the person and you have
a good collaboration or Good relationship, professional relationship with that person. I mean the
issues that come into the future, you can solve it together with the.
Answer: we do a license contract. We write everything. We put different possibilities of problems and
solution of each problem is this happened this what we will do in the future. We write this. They are, uh,
make the company made the license, but then they are list of possible problems in the future that could
happen.
Question: When you talk about good feelings, can you elaborate a bit more what you mean by
good feeling like just? What kind of feeling? We want to listen your your view about it.
Answer: For me. If I talk with the person and they don't look my eyes. It's very special feeling.
I am 59. I have that sense. That's exactly that's you discover. But also in negotiations depend of what
we are in negotiating, the typology of negotiation. you can see if you can have with other person a good
collaboration in the future. I would just mention that it's very subjective. But the years (of experience)
show me that it is effective.
Question: In the start you mentioned something about quick decisions that you like to have quick
decisions versus the big Companies Corporation which are quite slow. They're not good in taking
risk.
Answer: I explained this. Normally a big company like a multi national have a lot of Levels. Uh, normally
the decision is not in the top. It is taken by someone in Down below. And all the people, they are down,
Uh, they don't want to take a risk because they want their positions. They get their money (salary) and
and they make decision with difficulty and then everything is very slowly to arrive at a definitive decision
to growing in the pyramid and having the contract decision. In a company like ours or smaller or medium
company Or family company, The person is that take money and risk his money is (the one involved in
making decision), therefore the decision are more quickly. In a multinational, you can take more than one
year to take a decision in medium size companies, perhaps in one month two month you have a
decisions. And you have agreement.
Question: The German company you are collaborating with, but you mentioned that they have
around 8000 customers. So that seems to be a huge company. When you are working with a
company like this huge, do you have this kind of insecure feeling or something? Is is that
something that affects your decision to collaborate with other companies.
Answer: Why I go with this company? 1st I have a product. My product is to increase the methanization.
The biomethane production of this type of installation. We are in the market that have a two type of clients.
The companies, who install uh biodigesters. We have a lot of them in the Europe, perhaps there are 10
or 15 big industries who construct big biodigesters. But if I come with a license with one of them, then I
lost a lot of possible installations. It's not a good option because. I have a marry with one of them, but
they are 10 wives or 20 wives. I will be polygamic in this case . But is I will be in polygamic in this case,
but it's impossible. And 2nd possible clients are the motors and engines users, that consume biogas. The
clients of this is all of these 20 companies who construct big bio digesters only. They are two big
companies in Europe. Yeah, Jim Baker and 2G. And Jim Bakker is too big. 2G have more agility. They
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have increased the sales very quickly in the last years. They are very near to Jim baker. And also I know
a girl very well that is representative of 2G in Spain. And his Catalan is from 10 kilometers from where I
was born. I can speak in Catalan with uh, easily. That means more comfortable in negotiations in
everything. And it's for the reason. Personal and type of the company.
Question: You mentioned about the idea. Usually that's the idea is coming from your head and
then you go to the market. Could you please identify how you figure out that opportunities in the
market ,that trends in the market Do you see it in the media, you see it's on the corporation with
the industry. They have a problem and you need to solve it and especially that you have a lot of
patents and working on the research
Answer: What I found was that I read a lot each day. Then I go to the Conference in different items.
Conference of wastewater conference in energy, hydrogen methanization, CO2 and then I read a lot. I
heard in conference what is the last update.This is how I started my current company. In all research
program basically you have to read a lot. If you don't read a lot, when I say read a lot, you imagine I am
not electrochemist people. I am microbiologist. At and at the moment I think I I am one of the the best
electrochemists in Europe in the world. All of this what I know is because of reading. I have read almost
12,000 papers. And then a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of experiments in in my lab with the good results, bad
results, but bad results is good results because with bad results you can learn. You must read a lot.
Practice. Try a lot. Try to repeat because there are a lot of papers which are lies. Yeah, like this. A lot of
them is not true what they write in these research paper. They have a lot of things that is possible to do
only in the lab table, but it's impossible to to do in reality, on big scale. And I have the target of industrial
scale and then when I read, I repeat when I found new process always my my brain think in a industrial
scale. They have very good ideas in lab, but they are impossible to translate to industrial uh level.
Question: Now if you have different ideas and you need to work all of them, how to prioritize the
resources to allocate the resources? Because I know that you are a small company but and you
have.
Answer: To put first, second I take two Decision. Two items that I try to balance. My animos
(inspiration), personal animos and money. How I can increase my sales with this new technology.
Question: Do you have any issue with that resources in this case?
Answer: All of the money that we apply to research is internal money. It Is not uh with uh European
money. Why? Why? Because you need to give a lot of information to have funds. You must give a lot of
information to Europe and this information, you never will know where this information arrive. I have three
bad experience. One last week, after 30 years, 30 years here in Catalonia. I approached government. To
do a study for localization of uh asbestos, amyand asbestos in the in the population with the auto transport
sector. What is the localization of each installation with asbestos in the map and have a all the country's
register of these asbestos? I have been in a voice department in in Catalan government in 1993. Nothing
happened in 1993. And the last week, the government said we will start a project for asbestos. Exactly
the same information I tell them in paper in 1993 the same. 30 years after, but also two other things that
happen not not too late in time, but I am not comfortable in in. In uh, taking money from uh. European
funds. I I prefer. My time, my money, my decisions. And go quickly.
Question: Was it the case from the beginning when you didn't have any product to sell, you don't
use any European or how you fund the store?
Answer: Yes, never used funds to finance my project. Only one time with Magneto. Only one project with
Magneto, we won one European project. I thought it was €600,000. And I have a 360 minimal waste and
water and others found the two Magneto to develop one one thing but only one time in my life. Never
again.
Question: Does it ever happen that you found out some unexpected results in the lab? But at the
end you found out something different, something also additionall to what you were focusing to
achieve.
Answer: Always with the new patents or new process or new developments, you can develop one thing
and after three months It's finished because they are other one better than you. That's happen. In our
case never have passed this. And when you do a patent, you have one time. For example, when I finish
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study go no-go. I present the patent. Then I have two years more. From the presentation of the patent I
have two years. With my idea, if after two years they is something that the the patent Commissioner
would say this is wrong, this is impossible to patent, you have more or less half a year to correct this
situation. Sometimes, uh, the industrial pilot that we do after study gonna row show us that they have
something that we must introduce to the patent. And then. Because these two years we have doing this
industrial pilot. We have, uh, a last time to introduce the the possibilities. Uh. Changings. we do it. The
first patent application is not the last one. For example, the South Koreans or the Chinese, in graphic
graphene studies. They present, they thought, uh, what we can do with uh Graffin? They have present
in only one year, thousands of patents. 1000 with no lab test in anyone. In two years, they try all of these
patents if this possible. Protective, but it is possible to uh, do a effective patent. If it if it is possible, they
patent definitively. If they have, the first idea was wrong and the last trials was wrong. They leave the
patent, after this.
Question: If you are not able to utilize a patent to commercialize it. What you do in that case,
how long do you wait before do you try to Give this patient to someone else, and how long do
you use wait before you give the license.
Answer: The patent is very expensive to maintain. It cost from 60,000 to €100,000, more or less. If you
don't have sales from this patent, You you don't pay next year. You say we will try to sell in next two years
in in two years. Don't have a good market to implement this new patent then that could say that it's not a
good pattern on not just good process. At the moment, all of the patents that we have at present, We
have to market. and we have a sales real sales. But could happen then. Sometimes you have a new
development, but it's very difficult to implement because the Society society is not prepared for this new
process or the money in the market or something could happen. It's not now our case.
Question: Most of your patients are you licensing them out to other companies or you are making
a product your own self from these patients as well?
Answer: At the moment we have 3. Only one have a license. The other two, We must know some
companies that we are comfortable to give the patents to only sell. We have given one of the license to
this German company.
Question: What the main challenge when you walk in the innovations and cooperation with the
partners, you are face right now.
Answer: I found ohh when the the person feelings then. This company Umm. How are the contacts in the
the country market? the commercial uh business plan.
Question: What the advice or recommendations that you give for a company like small and
Medium company do like successful working in the innovation as you as you did?
Money. Never thought that the money is raining.
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Company F
Q:
How did you get started in business, and could you please give us a brief background on your company?
Interviewee
I think the first thing to say guys is that I have no qualifications, so I'm not an engineer and I'm not a scientist but
I came across this technology electrochemical activation probably now about 14 years ago and I thought that if it
could do what was being claimed, then it was kind of interesting. So I started to gain more information I then got
a little bit waylaid in that I was doing workout in Dubai on water treatment at the Burj Khalifa Lake there, and
that took about five or six years out of, you know, out of my out of my time, and it was only a guess. About eight
years ago I started to put some serious attention to my company, and we started off with having small devices
made for us in South Korea that we then sold into the general cleaning and disinfection sector, and we then
started to design and develop our own larger systems in house and expand the number of sectors that we could
service. So now I guess our main sectors are still general cleaning and disinfection for offices, schools, nursing, all
that type of stuff but now getting into food processing, particularly fisheries for use on marine applications, so
cruise ships, trawlers, fish farms, and starting to be water treatment as well.
Q:
How do you identify new opportunities and how do you move forward with that perspective? Is there a process
for that?
Interviewee
We are tiny company. There are five or six of us here, historically, I've come from a corporate background where
we spent a lot of time strategizing, planning, implementing, doing all of that stuff, I'm now, this is my company.
I'm now free to do what I want; I pursue areas that are interesting rather than areas that could make the most
amount of money so that is just my character, Of course, we need to make a margin. We need to make a profit,
but we're kind of driven by suing with different clients, things that are interesting. So, for example, a potential
client will come to us and say: Will your technology work for us? Is that something that you could do for us? Is it
goanna add value to our process and then we will look at it and say well, either we've got a system here and we
can build it we're familiar with it or this is sufficiently interesting for us to do a little bit of research R&d
ourselves and see whether this will work, so in some ways I'm just trying to summaries this, we are not led by a
hard commercial strategy, we are led by where our interest takes us and of course with that, it is a judgement if
we're goanna spend our time and our resources in developing a new system. What is the likelihood of us being
able to make you return not only on that system, but also open up a new sector for us.
But I have a very interesting example of that, if that would help. We do a quite bit of work and some really
interesting work in the Faroe Islands and Iceland through our partner in Denmark, who's got representation in
the Faroe Islands and Iceland, both. Obviously big fishing countries and we have sold
our generators using a partner’s cells up into Iceland and the Faroe Islands for use in fish processing factories,
and we've got a couple of systems on a trawler so all of that where we're comfortable with, we're familiar with,
we know that works, however, through those contacts we then got involved in an exercise with a salmon farm,
and the Salmon farm takes salmon eggs, it hatches them, and then it grows salmon up until they're about, I
think, 1.8 kilograms in big tanks in the Faroe Islands, and the water in those tanks needs to be very carefully pH
controlled, now what they use is sodium hydroxide crystals.
Which they then mix and dose into the water to balance the water. So, as the fish get fed they shit into the
water and they make the water slightly more acidic, so there has to be a pH balancer and they use sodium
hydroxide, one of our cell suppliers, using a membrane cell has cells that will produce sodium hydroxide. So, we
put together a little test unit. We took it up there. We did all the trial work, and it works really well, so we have a
proposal now for a big system for the onsite generation of sodium hydroxide for that salmon farm. Financially, it
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makes sense for them from an environmental point of view, it's great for them. They're very environmentally
conscious.
Now what that would do for us is not only would it be a really nice sale in its own right, but suddenly we have a
new system that's producing sodium hydroxide specifically for salmon farms, and if we have a reference site and
a business case for this one farm, suddenly we have a new sector opened up for us.
Q:
I have a question about going back to when you started. But before that, I would request one thing we are
interested in listening to your story about having this significant journey that you started a company, and you
are now established in this sector. So, my question is, you mentioned that you are not basically an engineer, but
you were interested in this technology, and you started your company you went to the first technology sale.
How did you get your hand on this technology? Was it a partnership with someone or did you develop your own,
or what you did?
Interviewee
In the very initial stages, we found a product manufactured in South Korea (Interviewee show us the prototype)
so this was our first product. one liter jug. You won't be able to see, but there's a little cell in the bottom, and
that sits on a base and water a little bit of salt and you generate the solution. So that was our first product, and
we got the design and we had to made in South Korea and shipped over to us and that was seemed to be very
innovative. We got on, we got some good customers, and we started selling those. But it was one product in a
very restricted market. So, what we then wanted to do was to expand that product range and the expansion was
larger systems. So first, just using batch systems, so this here one liter, we then got 10 liters so we could give a
greater capacity. But then we started using membrane cells, for larger systems and then we started talking to a
partner about the production of sodium hypochlorite for industrial processes.
Q:
When you scaled up this technology for the larger level, you probably or did you contact any partner like
financial partners, technological partners, or you did it your own everything in house?
Interviewee
My philosophy with a small company that's owned by one person you can apply your own philosophy to how
things are run so. I don't borrow. I don't play with other people's money, so the money either comes from me
putting it in my own personal account, which I've did for quite a number of years.
And then once we start generating margin and profit, you know using that to reinvest. So no, I don't have any
dialogue with any investors or venture capitalists, we obviously have a bank account, but it's always in surplus
because I don't want to get in that. It's difficult enough to run a small company operationally, never mind having
to deal with, you know, external financial companies.
Q:
How about the technological partnership or some knowledge sharing?
Interviewee
We have been extremely fortunate in that we have our technical manager here, Tony. who I've known for a long
time his background was plumbing and electrics for people's homes but as an interest as a hobby, he makes his
own lasers. He makes his own electronics and he's a solution finder.
So, we started off at this small scale and in fact one of these little units here wasn't working and I was
complaining to him, and he took it home and brought it back the next day and said I fixed it.
So, from that point we then started to work together to build the bigger systems on and off, bigger all the time,
bigger and bigger, this is the way that we work. It's really shallow, there's very little depth, but we design
everything ourselves. We make everything ourselves here, we know intimately all about it.
Q:
You were interested in this area, and you had some product, some idea in your mind. How did you approach the
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customer or the market to sell it? Was it on the other side, you also mentioned that it was customer driven. So
how did you meet the contact with the possible customer?
Interviewee
In the very early stages, it was approaching cleaning companies, FM companies here in the UK, and promoting
the small the small systems to them, and that gave us knowledge. It gave us expertise; it gave us contacts. We've
also established what I call partnerships for those in those that are non-legal, but working with the companies
and again leaders of those companies that understand the benefits of the technology and want to promote that,
so I guess those contacts, that there's no set formula. You know, sometimes they approach us, sometimes we
approach them. 90% of them failed because they get very excited. We spend time on them and then it just all
evaporates. So, you try to identify a hard core of people who really understand it and want to use those systems
for their clients. And again, if I give you a good example. We work with an established company on the South
Coast of England called Tower supplies. They service a lot of cruise ships lines with a wide variety of different
products. Janitorial products, uniform shoes, safety gear, etc....the owner of that company has become
completely dedicated to this technology in our systems and using his marketing and his contacts.
Our systems are on every Cunard, every P&O cruise ship, Fred Olsen cruise ships so suddenly we have cruise
ships as a sector, as our little specialism for those systems where I don't have to sell.
I have has exclusivity for the cruise ship sector. He goes out and promotes and sells our systems. We just
manufacture them and install them.
Q:
Do you hold any property rights for the products that you are developing?
Interviewee
No, we don't. I mean the technology itself; electrical chemical activation is a known science. So there's no
patents around the technology. Of course, different manufacturers of patented certain aspects of it,
but we don't. Not least of which, again, my philosophy is, if you're goanna spend money in a patent, you've then
got to be prepared to spend a lot of money on protecting it. So what we do is we work with partners who are
the specialist in electrochemical cells. We're not cell specialists, so we buy cells from our partners and what we
specialize in doing is using those specialist patented cells Into our own systems.
Q:
Does that pose a risk for you because, in that case, anyone in the market can learn from your technology and
compete with you, don't you think?
Interviewee
Yes, that's always the risk. But again, my judgement is that the potential market for these technologies and for
the solutions that they create is huge and I do not regard another ECA manufacturer as being a competitor by
regard multinational chemical companies as being my competitor. So, someone can buy our system and say,
well, we can replicate that part, for me I says well, good luck because it's never as easy as people think. There
are also all the legislative barriers for biocides regulations that cost a lot of money require a lot of work which
someone would have to do. I think our danger doesn't come from a startup or from a small company. It would
come from a multinational that says, OK, we must add this to our portfolio to demonstrate that we've got an
environmentally sensitive alternative and I'm surprised that none of them have.
Q:
As you mentioned that it's kind of a threat for your business. How would you think of protecting yourself if you
have to?
Interviewee
I'm not sure that I would. I would carry on doing what I'm doing, I think we are very good at building
relationships with customers, and I have confidence that we will carry on with our business because
you know, let's say a multinational comes in and says: we've got these fantastic systems, I still can compete with
them. So, I'm not that concerned about it. And you know, maybe these examples are useful: we were contacted
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by Apple. This was about five years ago. who started to become interested in the technology for their stores,
they then spent the next two years of intensive due diligence on the science and technology, but also on us as
individuals, as a company, Incredible depth of due diligence, and they then decided that they want they wanted
to start to use our systems in their stores.
So that we had a little roll out plan, starting off in France and then rolling out, this was for Europe then
In February 2020 I got a call early in the morning saying: Could you put these systems in all of our stores in
Europe? Within the next couple of weeks, the end of the day was. Can you do Asia Pacific? The end of the week
it was. Can you do the States and the Americas worldwide?
They saw the impact of Covid, but the result of all of that and the relationship was that our systems are in every
Apple store worldwide, now I also know that they look at some other products, and that kind of, tell me
probably to keep me a little bit sharp, and I'm not bothered by that. I know our products are better, but also, I
know that relationship but also the whole of the administration process of being able to service a company like
Apple in 30 odd countries is pretty complex, and another little company couldn't do it. So, you might look at me
and think, well, maybe he's a little bit vulnerable, but actually I feel quite secure.
Q:
We can see a lot of confidences on your side. For example, starting from the very start took a product, you
scaled it up to a bigger level, you started with a small company, and you are remained financially independent,
you are customer driven and you also mentioned, you do not want to have an IP right, because you are quite
sure that you have really good customer connections. If I asked you for your core competence, something that
has helped you so far in your business and that you believe will help you to grow further, what would be that
one capability quality that you have?
Interviewee
That's really difficult to pin it down to. One thing, I think I'll pin it down to two things:
First of all, A technical problem-solving ability, So, to take a cell from the partner, and have the technical
competence to be able to do all of the electronics, do all the hydraulics do all the controls, do all the software.
Those are big, complicated jobs, and we have that in house and we have that ability to be able to work through
all of those problems.
The second element: would be in terms of developing and maintaining our personal relationships with clients,
and you know, probably a good example of that would be with Cunard and P&O cruise ships where we don't
actually sell to them. We sell to our partner on the South Coast, and initially they were worried, about us having
a direct dialogue with the customer.
We told them all the time and we have a fantastic relationship with them in terms of any issues that they've got,
and it's really good and we're talking about 15 odd ships here, you know, and some of these ships will do round
the world cruises, they have no other, cleaning and disinfection solutions on board other than our sheets, so
they're totally reliant on us. So after-sales services I think this is really, really good, having said all of that, I think
the other question is to reverse that and OK those your core competences, but what are your weaknesses? and
are some of your competencies weaknesses. So, the first competency is about our technical expertise, it’s one
guy he needs gets run over by a bus.
Q:
Talking about your reverse question again, maybe I will rephrase it a bit. What are the things that you believe
are kind of hurdles for your progress or maybe it's a kind of a threat to you, and you need to prove it?
Interviewee
Cash is always, a potential issue in that we don't have Contractual forms of income other than you know, very,
very small. So, if we run for a couple of months without any major sales, we still have all of our fixed costs to
pay, again, my personal philosophy is enough money in the bank so that if you had a full year with no sales, are
you still in business at the end of it? And we're in that situation that's not a viable way to do it. So, we're always
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conscious of cashing in terms of out of vulnerability.
It's all about sales, we have to get the sales in.
Q:
I will put a situation and maybe you can give us what would be the best option for you. Let's say you have two
companies. One is a big one, one is a small like yours, and both offer you to collaborate with them could be
financial, could be technical whatsoever, and you have a great opportunity if you collaborate with them, you
have an expansion and the third is you reject both of them. Which one will you choose and why?
Interviewee
That would come down to people, and that is trust. That we would place in that partner or those partners. That
they were committed, because in any business, and particularly in this business, the concept is really attractive.
And people get very excited and believe that they can make quick returns for a little risk, and it's not like that.
So, there are a lot of time wasters. So, in selecting a partner, we have to be really sure that we trust them. We
understand what their values are, and we want to be able to see that they are totally committed, so that is less
about the size and much more about the qualities of your partner.
Q:
You mentioned that as a small company, sometimes difficult to manage the operation in general, how do you
assess the risk versus potential awards when you come to the innovation?
Interviewee
Historically, not very well because I'm guilty of Hey, that’s really interesting to do, not if we do it, we're goanna
make this amount of money out of it I think we've got better, and we try now to be much more objective to
work with fewer people, but trying to make sure that those people are, you know, those partners are really
good. So, I would say now that we're probably got about four partners on the sales and the promotion side, who
are totally committed, who have demonstrated their commitment, and I don't need to take any new ones on,
but if I were to consider it and a lot of them sort of come knocking on the door, my first response now is to not
throw the door open but to be much more cautious.
Q:
Other than this one quality that you have learned with time, what other things or learn lessons that you have
learned from the start of this company until now that you feel that in the start if you would have known this
thing, you could have been better performance?
Interviewee
I think looking back on my career history, a big part of my life was corporate. I was CEO of a company with two
and a half thousand employees, and it was very structured, and process driven, and we had a board and I
reported to the board, and it was all very formal, and I think looking back in it there was a sort of rebellion from
my side that I didn't want to board. I didn't want to have to report to anybody. I didn't want to have to answer
to anybody. I didn't want to have to justify a decision that I was making, and probably the pendulum swung a
little bit too much the other way, and I think that there is a middle ground there, that if you start to scale up a
company, then you need to have those disciplines and you need to have those breaks, and Certainly a number of
the early years were my company there weren't those breaks, so I think I'll probably identify that as being a key
thing for me to learn, I think the other thing that's really relevant for me is you know, I'm now 65, and I'm not
goanna be doing this forever, and I'm in a position where I don't actually want to get much bigger, I'd be happy
to take on a few more people. We've got lots of premises here. We've got lots of space here, we're really happy
that we can cope with bigger projects and more projects, when I was 35-40 I wanted to conquer the world and I
wanted to have offices in Melbourne and wherever now I'm really happy with what we're doing here with our
small team, which we can expand, but in a really controlled way. I don't want to conquer the world anymore.
Q:
The last questions, if you have an advice for the company, like your company's small & medium, how they can
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apply the innovation for them? Do you think that it is an unnecessary things they can do it and the long way and
through that the journey? Do you have an idea? Thought advice is for that one.
Interviewee
Yes, I believe that Innovation is absolutely critical, particularly to smaller companies, because they have to
differentiate themselves, they don't have the scale to be able to produce things cheaper, so they have to
produce things that are better, more innovative, and probably carry a little bit of a premium as well. So,
innovation I think is absolutely key, and one of the things I didn't mention was that we enjoy a really good
relationship with our local university, which is the University of West of England, who have a department that
actually by coincidence and Fortune specializes in electrochemical activation, but they have done for 20 odd
years and they're acknowledged to be sort of world experts in the science of it. So, we do research projects with
them, I used them the professor there is an ambassador for our company as well and is very happy to do that.
So, innovation doesn't necessarily mean you have to carry all the costs yourselves. We've had some government
sponsorship; we've got involved in research projects which I have been government sponsored one recently. It
was jointly sponsored by UK Government and the Indian Government for Technologies that will provide clean
drinking water in remote areas, now, that may or may not become a commercial product, but it's worthwhile it's
something that we could promote to our customers as being, you know, we're not just narrowly commercially
minded, but we also have a view to the good that this technology can do to less developed countries, and it's
interesting. So, innovation isn't just about I'm goanna set aside so much cash each year to plough into R&D.
There are ways that you can do it with partnerships and with research establishments and grants and that type
of thing that adds value to my company, but also allows us then to promote ourselves as being more than just a
commercially driven business.
Q:
When someone starts a company like a small company like you have so far, initial is the finances, is the first
issue, but this can be solved like say some with some support or some partnership. But there is one thing that
we heard from almost each interviewee that we performed and that was trust, it is the most important thing to
have partnership. What do you think? What could have been done or what kind of support can be provided
from the government or from other companies to get this kind of capability or this kind of skills in the very start
like you mentioned that you are now much more careful in trusting someone as compared to what you want in
the start and that was kind of a mistake that you did in the start and this is not only you, we heard it from almost
each company.
What's your idea? What could be done to improve it?
Interviewee
I'm not convinced that there is a training course or identifying trust, I think it's an experience and a bit of age. It's
your Historic experience of people that you've trusted, but also people that have not been trustworthy, and I
think it's deploying that I don't think it's a science. I think it's something that you have to develop internally and
of course that is based on multiple things, it's not one element, but I guess one of my key measures is on
delivery, so again, in the past and still we have a cure, people saying, well, you won't believe how many of your
systems are goanna sell next year that you won't be able to cope with it,
and of course, they never do. It's the ones that then say, I don't know, I really like your systems, I like you as a
company, but I don't know how many I'm goanna sell, but then come back with an order for a decent number,
and again, maybe the good example is a partner in this in the South Coast of England with the cruise ships where
of course I had a number of meetings with him I knew he was an extremely capable sales guy and a built a
business on selling to the cruise ships, and you know, for us, a big sale would be 3 or 4 systems, and then, he
went quiet for a number of months and came back and said right, I've got an order for 50 systems for all these
cruise ships now. It's the evidence that they can deliver rather than the talk about what they're going to deliver.
That is one of the key measurements.